Why One Internet Pioneer Thinks the Original Model Broke Transcript, AI Summary & Key Points

00:00 We're really at an inflection point because you have the birth of essentially coin operated intelligence at scale. >> The internet has really kind of stagnated a bit from protocol design. There's like not a lot of new stuff. All of it's built on top. Erasing that is kind of what I'm trying to go for. >> What you're saying is you've actually built this transient way for folks to connect and chat without there being any record.

00:20 >> The really big problem is on WhatsApp, Signal, [music] iMessage, Telegram. All of those applications disguise themselves as you sending something to somebody else, but you're really sending something to a server. But the question is like, okay, well, whose servers are those? >> It's coming at [music] such an important inflection point for like the future of our country, tech, and to just have this conversation that seems to be manipulated to some.

00:42 >> It feels very manipulated. And to me, the future of our tech is needing to build this infrastructure now if we're crippling it. Well, today we're joined by Barrett Lion, perhaps the most one of the most interesting people in tech. [laughter] Uh, I I have a lot of stories to share and I am always kind of blown away every time we catch up because you tell me a new story that just puts everything I've ever done in pale in comparison.

01:04 Um, and I think the the most interesting one I heard recently, and I had never heard it before, and this was during a period, I believe, where we were investors in your previous company, um, was you you are a pilot, you have a pilot's license, and you decided to optimize your life by flying places. Um, and and you had a a an unfortunate experience, I believe, flying back from one of our meetings.

01:30 >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, uh, one day I was driving to work in the Bay Area and I realized it was almost 45 minutes, which used to be 15 and, uh, my family lives up in the Tahoe region. So, I'm like, well, I think the plane can fly there in about the same time. Maybe I could just commute that way. That was before, uh, before work from home was like codified by uh, by uh, COVID.

01:52 So, I had a phys like a need to physically be present. Um, so yeah, I started flying and >> So your daily driver was a daily flyer, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So I put like 1,300 hours on Assirus and um yeah, one day after a meeting here, I left and got in the plane, took off from San Carlos and somewhere around over the over Oakland airport, the engine started acting up and you know, I thought maybe it was like some sort of water in the fuel or something, but I climbed up, cleared Bravo, and felt like I was okay.

02:31 And then right after that thought, lost pretty much all power and uh >> and what went through your head immediately after that? [sighs] >> Yeah, [laughter] actually I messaged my friends and said, "Hey guys, I have an emergency. Love you." Um uh I I don't know. I just declared emergency and just tried to think, "Okay, where do I crash and not hurt people?"

02:54 [laughter] I found a field and then it turns out, you know, I was up pretty high and there was a, you know, giant airport right next to us. not Oakland, but it was um Buchanan Field. Uh uh I forget the name of the town. And uh it's a giant old military airport. >> Oh, in Alama. >> No, it was the other one. >> The other one uh on the other side of the mountain range there.

03:17 Uh >> Buchanan Field is the name of it, I believe. But um anyway, landed there. >> But so but before that, I kind of went to this field and I was like, "All right, well, I've got a parachute, ballistics parachute. >> Do I pull it?" And I was thinking, all right, well, when I read all these crash reports, the reason the pilot dies is because they didn't use parachutes.

03:38 Absolutely. I'm like >> I'm like kind of like, well, the airport's right there and I'm still in the air flying. >> And isn't that a funny quirk of that plane that it's like technically the safest plane ever made, but yet it's involved in the most crashes because people never use a safety feature. >> Yeah. Well, and I mean it it does work, but it destroys the plane, too.

03:53 So, you know, it shoots a rock out of the back of the tail and it rips all the stuff out and ruins the plane. So, and then it's not a guarantee that you're going to land nicely on the ground. And in fact, the seats, I think, are made with a crumple impact thing. So, when you do hit the ground, it absorbs some of the compression. >> And and this is all playing out over how long this period of time?

04:15 >> Oh, I don't know. Probably like minutes or less, [laughter] >> maybe less. And then uh anyway, I just made the call to land and landed rolled right on to the transient parking spot. >> And it was I was calm. I I was kind of frustrated, a little confused like when I got out of the plane. >> And then u you know those big fire truck things, the huge ones.

04:36 >> Yeah. >> That look like some kid made them, but they're big. >> Um the guy gets out of that, shakes my hand, and then that's when the fear hit me because I'm like, that's the guy scraping my my brains off the ground. [laughter] I'm like, "Oh, no. This is the guy that puts the fire out." Like the >> Yeah, >> that was close. And uh then I'm like, "Now what do I do?

04:56 I have to get home somehow. I rent a car, drive home." That was kind of the end of it for me. I was like, you know, the risk is too high. I kept the plane for a while and ended up uh fing it out to Las Vegas and selling it. But I was >> Did you ever find out what the issue or the cause was? >> Yeah, it was like three really weird things at the same time.

05:13 Um, one was a piece of metal on the air intake control valve or kind of a lever broke off and sucked into the air intake manifold and then it went down to the oil pan and it was crushed into cylinder 3 and six I think. >> Oh wow. >> And then that caused a an electrical problem with something with the spark which was controlled by a brand new uh um electronic fuel or electronic ignition system.

05:43 Mhm. >> that stopped working and so then I lost half ignition and then at the same time my magneto on the other side which is the backup >> also stopped working. >> Oh wow. [laughter] Yeah. >> So it was like three it was like a cascading strange failure. >> And then it was also weird too cuz on the ground the magneto was kind of working a little bit.

06:05 >> So it would start but then it when you went to higher RPMs it just went bye-bye. So >> yeah. >> Anyway. Yeah. So that's what it was. It took a while to figure it out. Uh but yeah, that was that was an interesting drive [laughter] home. Happens. >> Yeah. Now you now you understand why the the Pope kisses the ground when he gets off the plane, right?

06:25 >> Yeah. If there's ever another plane in my life, it will have less moving parts. [laughter] >> Hopefully a backup back of pilots and uh redundancy. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you fly a lot, you kind of you're increasing your I guess your risk level a little bit. >> Yeah. Well, and that and that sort of probably triggered a lot of things. I know we're here to talk about your new venture.

06:46 Um, which which sort of is something very I'd say very different for you. It seems more like uh more close to home um more important. And so maybe we can talk a bit about docs. >> Sure. >> And sort of like why you decided to build Well, first of all, what is it? What caused you to do it? Um and and kind of maybe your thinking around why this is important, why now?

07:08 >> Well, okay. So docset first of all uh maybe you should explain the name. >> Yeah, sure. Yeah. Uh you know I was uh as a kid my hacker name was Docs and then I started a business in high school with my high school friend called DocsNet and we were renting this before cloud and we were renting ser server basically giving user accounts for for money.

07:29 Yeah. >> Um totally legit business in in high school. We're making pretty good money. >> Were these shell accounts? >> Yeah, shell accounts. So we were selling shell accounts for $5 a month but we had a thousand users. and we had all these features and people liked it and there was actually a little community around it for a while. Um, but I shut, you know, I got out of high school and shut it all down and started my career and but I kept a domain and also I'm very fascinated about protocol design and the fact that the

07:55 internet is really kind of stagnated a bit from protocol design. There's like not a lot of new stuff. All of it's built on top. So there's that and then just noticing the shift of sensor censorship >> and people's privacy being eroded and all of this kind of thing kind of >> and then the uprise of VPN uh made it really interesting to make a a kind of an alternative network.

08:20 >> Yeah. that kind of is designed from the ground up to protect people uh from advertisers, trackers, malware, uh and you know, foreign adversaries trying to learn about what you're doing. Um >> well, I mean, the original promise of the internet was this incredible marketplace of ideas, unrestricted, no censorship, right? I think a lot of original a lot of the original people around the founding of what became the internet were were you know free speech maximalists.

08:49 It was sort of a a very um very specific crowd and I think over the last couple years that to your point is has shifted pretty incredibly right. >> Yeah. And it's in the hands of a few um so you know for example China is a good example is China Netcom, China Telecom and those or is it China? Yeah. Anyway, either way, the um it's a pretty good chokeold of the entire population using that network as an opportunity to force people into different decision-m processes.

09:20 >> And the internet originally, >> like you said, was kind of designed with this like open kind of concept. So, bringing that back is some one of the things I was kind of interested in doing. um trying to figure out new ways of doing things that might kind of leverage before the internet. You know, way back in the day, wireless networking was what uh Alohaet or something like that.

09:43 There was like wireless through um packet modems and things, but now we have like really high powerful Wi-Fi on the edge. um incredible opportunities to create better mesh protocols >> and and better P2P and and kind of really one of the biggest stains of the entire internet is carrier grade NAT >> it's just destroying applications ability to do really cool stuff and uh erasing that is kind of what I'm trying to go for.

10:11 >> Gotcha. Um, and also I think you know one of the interesting things is we always talk about sort of foreign governments restricting internet access, right? We we we harp on China and Russia. Um, but I was in a in a state recently that has a know your customer rule and they were requiring or blocking access to certain websites. Um, you know, whatever they define as being inappropriate.

10:34 It could be a health website. It could be whatever. Um, and so we're actually seeing the the creep of kind of this censorship even within the United States. >> Yeah, it's creeping into the US and it's being done in in a way that's kind of odd because you're asking a lot of times they're asking the network to solve an identity problem and the network doesn't do identity.

10:56 Yeah. >> You know, it's not >> it has a hammer and it's going to hammer the nail. an IP address is not your your driver's license. And asking people to do network restrictions based off of age and things like that, >> it makes a lot of sense, but in a different place in the stack. >> Yeah. >> You know, if they want to present, you know, restrict things for certain reasons, then that should be done in a much different way and not asking the network to do it.

11:20 So, yeah, I I think that we're starting to see that in the United States. We're seeing it definitely elsewhere. Mhm. >> Um, and it's also not just with like age restrictions, but uh interesting problem popped up the other day where Google or Cisco umbrella broke for like a major carrier because they classified that carrier as France. They're not even in France really as far as the corporate structure goes.

11:46 But France had a a rule requiring them to block like a 100 plus piracy sites and they said no, we're going to go scorched earth. we're just going to block France. [laughter] Well, then there's the blast radius of that which is okay. Well, then if your geo provider accidentally identifies somebody as the wrong location, then you're also now part of that policy.

12:08 >> Oh, yeah. >> And it's terrible. >> Those those classifications are always the worst. I mean, we were looking at in we were looking at an investment opportunity in a company that makes chat bots that are focused on more like partnership type stuff or companionship type stuff. and half of the classifications engines classified it as adult content and and you're just sort of like okay well this is like a legitimate like you know e e partner e spouse site like it's not doing the unourred stuff.

12:34 Yeah, we've run into that a little bit too. Docs because it's got two X's in it and then also >> there's doxing. Yeah. >> But it actually worked out in our favor because we got flagged I think with uh Claude and then we applied with you know the proper means to go through their uh their registration process and they opened up everything for us which is quite nice.

12:58 >> That's great. >> Yeah. And so maybe I mean I think so so you know the the the this creeping sort of the creeping information totalitarianism um has given birth to a whole bunch of products of which we know we're all super familiar with right and VPNs is probably the most most most common um and so maybe it'd be great to hear a little bit about sort of why the existing tools aren't enough why are you building docs how is it different maybe we could double click a bit on on sort of your thoughts around it because I

13:26 think that's the interesting part >> so a lot of the VPNs um I would say are just entry and exit points. So they're operate they lease a server from a landlord and uh set up a pol their software on it and then you connect to it encrypted and then your requests and things that you do on the internet come from out that node >> and that's to solve the your IP address is your identity problem that we sort.

13:51 Yeah, it kind of kind of is a a way around that, I guess. And but it's also kind of >> people feel like there's more security to that. >> And I could argue against that, but um you know, it's very basic. It's not if you think about it that those networks are real time adjustable. You could apply APIs to everything and uh all of a sudden you could say all right well here's an API that your agent can use that can build an entire network and you're just using the VPN protocols as a way to get into that area and then

14:23 inside we can create either you can call it a walled garden or a parallel internet or whatever you want to call it but we built an entire mesh network 196 different domains that don't exist on the internet you can register domains you can lease IP addresses you can lease mesh addresses or public addresses uh create policy all within like milliseconds.

14:44 >> Got it. >> So it's a whole different ecosystem in there and then on top of that we've been able to use that uh system since we we can kind of control it um to create P2P applications that actually work. So like phone calling, video call, chat, uh all of those things that sit best of class on top of the app run across the mesh network and it's all encrypted.

15:07 Gotcha. >> No phone numbers, no no email addresses, no names, no uh no nothing. >> So, it's it's funny. It's funny. And that's that's that's that's phenomenal because I think you know, we're we're we're both pretty well steeped in the security space and um you know, I think I come from sort of a I've had it drilled into my head that if you want to have a private conversation, don't do it anywhere with anything with a battery or an electrical signal.

15:33 Right. Right. Um and so and so what you're saying is you've actually built this sort of like transient way um for folks to connect and chat without there being any record. >> Yeah. So you create your account, you just have to prove you're human by doing a little puzzle. Uh once you do that, you get a token, it's yours. Uh you can change it. Um you can delete your account, make a new one.

15:56 Uh but once you're in there, you can create a certificate and share it with a friend. You don't really know you're doing and it just says you invite friend and it looks kind of like normal but it's actually doing a cryptographic exchange with each other >> and then you have extra privileges. >> I I think the key lesson of PKI was actually if you tell people it's PKI it's not going to work.

16:17 So yeah, you have to kind of abstract that layer away, right? >> Yeah, it's it's it's well it's not even PKI, it's private key in like it's not public. So anyway, you you and your friend just decided, okay, we trust each other. >> Now that unlocks the ability for the phones over the mesh network to talk to each other directly. And then all of a sudden, you have all these really cool fire file transfer stuff, which has no file size limit.

16:40 The really big problem is on WhatsApp, Signal, iMessage, Telegram, and by the way, Telegram's creepy. Um, all of those applications disguise themselves as you sending something to somebody else, >> but you're really sending something to a server and then the server is then having the other person pull that. So, if you upload a file, you're uploading it and and also the upload infrastructure isn't always as distributed or doesn't might even be a little bit slow.

17:09 Uh, you might be in one part of the US and you're uploading it to another. So, the upload's a little slow. So when we use our applications, it extracts all of that. It's gone. So it's really no middle man, no server in the middle and your phone becomes a server to uh your friend and it's fast. It it it works great. You can send 20 gigabyte file to each other and >> 20 gigabytes private network pointtooint low latency.

17:34 Wow. >> With like three layers, four layers of encryption. >> Gotcha. >> So yeah, it's post quantum and uh I mean these are really nice tools to have. >> Yeah. So I don't know when you start stacking up all of these things it's docset is kind of like this giant toolkit for freedom of speech I guess [laughter] >> freedom from surveillance. >> Yeah. Yeah.

17:55 We should talk about that too >> which is what's interesting. I mean you mentioned that you know Telegram is creepy. Um I I I uh I would say I think I find all it just seems like a lot of the VPN I don't want to say all because that's an absolutist term but it seems like a lot of the VPNs are very creepy. Right. And and without bashing on anyone specific, I think for me the most illustrative story was in the in the news there was there was actually an issue where um a bunch of organized criminals were arrested across

18:24 the world. Australia I believe had arrested some, the US had arrested some and it turned out that the FBI had built a secure messaging app um and then marketed it exclusively to organized criminal groups. And so these guys are like don't trust Signal because that's the NSA. [laughter] let's let's use let's use this app because this is safe and only five people use it and it turned out that they all got indicted because and they were I think most of them are in prison now.

18:49 Um and so like in the US right we've seen this activity uh and then if you look on any app store and you look for VPN you probably find 50 VPNs >> Yeah. >> that are all abroad. Well, if it's free, there's nothing free. [laughter] >> If you're not paying for it, you are the product. You're being eaten alive. >> You know, the United States has pretty cool laws.

19:13 We can use them to protect people. >> And so, Docset's US-based, but we also have a Swiss company that handles all of European operations. So, there's separation between the operations between the two regions. We're doing other regions like that, too. So it's it's you know corporate governance actually matters in these these types of situations but like >> you know I just don't feel comfortable with my data going to a company that doesn't talk about who owns it [laughter] why they exist other than privacy.

19:44 Um >> you know we made a very very conscious decision that we're very open about what we're doing who's involved why why the decisions have been made those ways. And it's it's also kind of to drive community too. But um yeah, there it there are creepy VPNs out there. >> Oh yeah. And and you know and it's not just I mean it's funny because we like to talk about nation states.

20:09 We like to talk about intelligence agencies, right? Like CIA, NSA, these are all super cool. Um but in reality like the risks are a lot more lowlevel than that, right? I can >> you know for some of these there were instances at the beginning of sort of the crypto the initial cryptocurrency waves where people's accounts were getting drained and they were using some of these services uh that were in other countries and it turns out that like you know in some of these countries you have the meshing together of the

20:38 intelligence state apparatus and organized crime right and so and so you you see where these things start to bleed into each other. >> Yeah. I mean, and then people look at the policies for the VPN. Oh, no logs, no this. And but the question is like, okay, well, whose servers are those? >> Yeah. >> Are they owned by big brand VPN or are they leased?

21:03 And if they're leased, who are they leased from? And what are those people doing with the data? And what are their policies? But there there's there's that whole underbelly. and and learning about that has been difficult because I personally was not up to be you know building infrastructure all over the world as rapidly as I could but I ended up realizing that that was you know if it's not your equipment uh you can't set policy it it it's just you can't and then the then the next layer of policy is the the carriers and

21:35 interconnect beyond beyond your cage or whatever it is. So, it's been an incredible amount of work to work around um you know, the bare metal as a service kind of creepy underbelly. >> And this is like one big difference with I think a lot of folks, right, is that you own the full stack from like software to wire. >> Yeah. Software to wire and uh even all the AI components that run routing and things like that are all on our on our metal.

22:04 >> Yeah. Well, and I I think that was that was one of the funny things I think when we originally started talking about this was um >> you were you were incredibly distrusting of large inference and AI providers. Yeah. Uh and and you've built your own AI stack. >> Yeah. >> That's and so so I mean GPUs are short in shortage. It's data power is hard to get.

22:25 Everybody's anti-data center now. Like how did you pull that off in probably six months? >> Very efficiently. Well, I mean we built uh so far it's like 26 sites around the world with redundant routing and uh >> and how many employees in the company? >> Uh total I think the people involved it's 12. >> Yeah. Wow. >> Yeah. Okay. >> And we have no network administrator, no CIS admin.

22:48 It's all done by AI. >> So um and it's actually working quite well. I'm I kind of I'm kind of on top of everything. The nice thing though, if you think about our footprint of like who's involved, you know, we don't have a thousand employees with access to this network. >> Yeah. >> Me, you know, the the uh the blast radius of uh just the corporate structure is very minimal.

23:15 >> Yeah. No, that's that's impressive. And I think, you know, the >> I think the the you know, the thing we very rarely talk about because it's kind of uncomfortable is just how great an extent insider threat is. Yeah. Yeah. >> And how it's like the most crippling catastrophic cyber attacks are always sort of the insider threat angle. And now you're saying with agents like you're kind of el you're eliminating at least a good portion of that risk.

23:40 >> Yeah. And it's running in its own you know secure environment that's not exporting data to like uh one of the big AI companies. So all the contacts and inference and stuff stays inside and we have it secured and we monitor all our equipment with cameras and uh no one goes in and touches anything. >> Do you have agents that watch the camera footage?

24:00 >> Actually, well I mean technically we don't but the camera companies that made the agents. >> Dr. [laughter] Yeah. >> Yeah. We get alarms if something moves and something like you know something goes around but um yeah we even thought about putting lasers in a couple of the spots but [laughter] >> kind of make it Mission Impossible style. >> I'm like why not?

24:16 It'd be kind of fun. Yeah. >> Um, >> you got to have the one data center that you take people to. Yeah. To to impress them, right? That's the like the switch data centers in Las Vegas. You know, they got the the jeeps with the 50 cal machine guns on them. You got to >> I mean, I I love lasers and I I did this big Anyway, long story short, uh, we did look into it and even got the the um light um uh actuated switches.

24:38 So, if the beams did break, it would actually set off the alarms and things. But uh just the problem was the data center doesn't turn off the lights. [laughter] So you don't get to see this really cool display. So and there's no dust in there and there's no particles for >> Yeah. Yeah. So >> yeah, you can't bring in some talcum powder because that'll mess.

24:59 >> No, it's like oh let's [laughter] let's smoke up the data center for the laser show. >> That's the other thing that's driving me crazy is people like don't understand data centers at all. >> Oh yeah, >> it's crazy. >> I mean I think you're seeing that in the popular press, right? >> Oh yeah. Oh, they drink water. Yeah, it's like come on. No, it's the data the data centers have been around for a very very long time and yeah, they need water when they break and you have to replenish some of the water and there's some

25:23 evaporation, but it's not like they're running off of water. That's the crazy part. >> Yeah. And it's it's just sort of like I think I think in in order of like most impressive machines humans have built, like one is probably commercial airliners, right? And two is got to be data centers. Like they're so incredibly sophisticated. They're closed systems like >> Yeah.

25:42 Yeah. I mean, the data centers themselves are kind of just boring buildings. >> Yeah. >> And the the other thing is like the sounds. I've never heard sound outside of a data center before. >> Yeah. >> Maybe a chiller or something. But I see videos where people are watching videos and it's like look at how it's audio from inside being dubbed and people aren't smart enough to know that >> that it's uh it's fake.

26:03 >> Yeah. I mean, yeah. It's all contained with inside these things. >> People are being manipulated with this data center thing. >> Isn't it amazing? Right. And I think like it's going to be I think over as the years progress it's going to come out that this was all just some sort of like very interested group of of of organizations or interests >> I completely >> are manipulating public opinion to some end.

26:23 >> Yeah. But it's very interesting to be in the know and then watch this and then go oh my goodness these people are missing the mark. >> Have you seen I mean because you you've been to 20some data centers in the last couple months. Have you seen actual protesters outside? >> No. >> You haven't? Yeah. No. I haven't like >> No, you see nothing. It's just most of them, especially like the big data center park in uh Virginia, you know, you just see bunny rabbits in the field.

26:47 [laughter] There's nothing. It's just a big building and a bunch of parking lot and then totally nothing. >> Yeah. Meanwhile, that's like one of the richest counties in the in the country because of all the data centers, right? >> Right. Because it brings jobs. The people that work in them aren't getting paid pennies. And uh and it also brings high-tech talent.

27:03 Yeah. >> And then also infrastructure and infrastructure powers everything you do. >> Yeah. >> So if you have a data center nearby, your internet's faster. Things like that work better. >> Well, >> depending on which one it is, but >> and then the argument about data centers drinking water goes back to some quote that was like fabricated entirely. Like >> it's it's Yeah.

27:24 Well, I think there was the switch data center built near Reno and they built this big like lake out there and then people think that that lives off the lake. >> Yeah. >> And the reality is, you know, if say you have a chiller failure and you have to drain all that clos, you need to refill it. >> Yeah. >> Drain it to the lake. >> Yeah. So anyway, yeah, it's so it's interesting to see people like I know I work in these buildings and and then you see the conspiracy theorists and it's like, oh no, we're we're way off here.

27:53 I'm sorry. [laughter] >> This feels just like the like the people that think the moon landing was faked or like it just feels like classic sort of but but I do think like this is it's coming at such an important inflection point for like the future of our country, tech, >> society in general. Um, and to just have this conversation that seems to be manipulated to some end.

28:15 >> It feels very manipulated. And to me, the future of our tech is needing to build this infrastructure now. And if we if we're crippling it, then we're making bad decisions. Yeah. And we're making bad decisions on Instagram posts. >> Oh, yeah. Or Tik Tok, right? >> Tik Tok. >> Which who knows where that content is being >> or like some crazy >> anti-data center music video.

28:35 >> Yeah. >> It's like that's that's public opinion is being forced framed by that. Well, and this is the second half. I mean, I guess the I know we we had talked about sort of intelligence agencies in the big bad scary government, right? But like and now we're talking more about clearly an operation that's probably being done by some sort of commercial interest to manipulate public opinion.

28:53 Yeah. >> Right. Which goes to kind of the second half of why you built docs, which is like, you know, advertising. >> Oh, yeah. which is which is sort of like the the like people like to think the NSA is incredibly sophisticated but you know advertisers are probably far ahead of what they're doing and I think you're seeing now where intelligence agencies are actually using data brokers and using the techniques of ad agencies.

29:16 >> Yeah. So like all your apps have these trackers in them. Uh WhatsApp has ditsap.net. Apple even has Apple telemetry. They call it telemetry or metadata, whatever they want to call it, but it's it's some level of it is a tracker >> and you can block them. It doesn't break the app. Doesn't break. Most websites don't have any problem with that telemetry data breaking because the rest of the site will still load.

29:40 But, you know, somebody asked me, very controversial, wealthy individual said, "Well, so what? Someone won't won't know that I purchased uh underwear off of target.com." And then I'm like, well, it's not really that one. It's all of them. When you combine all of the tracking that's being done on every different app that you're using or every different website and it accumulates and then it's being stored by who knows who, where, and being sold.

30:08 And then when you aggregate all those data points together, you could know if you're a coffee drinker, what time you wake up in the morning, uh what your income is, where you shop, um how often you purchase things, and >> if you're preparing for the birth of a child or perhaps for a divorce or some other big life event, right? >> They probably know these events sooner than your spouse would.

30:29 >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um so turning that off doesn't bother me at all. [laughter] >> I love all that stuff being turned off. I hate that kind of stuff. So that's a big piece of the app is or the the network. It's not just part of the app, it's part of the network is to kind of deconstruct all of that and get rid of it >> and just kind of like the get back to the old internet that has >> uh the ability to connect to things and has the ability to, you know, create >> and and then also, you know, not be spied on by, you know,

30:59 advertisers and governments and everybody else. Well, and it seems like we're really at an inflection point because you have the birth of essentially coin operated intelligence at scale, right? We can deploy millions. You've got the prevent you got the proverbial millions of of monkeys with millions or infinite monkeys with infinite typewriters. Um and and so we're sort of looking at this world in which there's more telemetry, there's more data, everything you do is being tracked, and you can combine that with

31:31 intelligence, right? To to actually arrive at some pretty scary conclusions. >> Yeah. You can take all that and just dump it into an LLM and say, "Tell me about this person." >> Yeah. >> You get an answer. >> Probably do really effective targeting against things like data centers as well, right? >> Yeah. Like you start to see these mass movements orchestrated across multiple platforms and you start to think like huh that's that's pretty clever.

31:53 >> Yeah. But people should be targeting those maybe not the data centers but the tracking is pretty bad. Ad tracking it's you know that that kind of stuff really can go away and your life would be better. >> Yeah. Um, so yeah, that that's at the core it's like trying to recreate that vibe that the internet used to have and then and then see where we could take it, you know, with with bigger resources and and things like that, you could start creating more protocols and things like that that don't exist yet.

32:20 So >> yeah, absolutely. I mean, the internet succeeded because it was free and so thank you for trying to make it free again. >> Trying. >> Yeah, >> but you have to pay me. >> Yeah, [laughter] exactly. >> Just kidding. Awesome. >> So, I don't know if you know this, but our paths crossed a long time ago. Um, I I I was looking back through some of my archives and and I I did a lot of work um sort of in the early 2000s on DOS bots.

32:50 So, stockold, TFN, TFN2K um and then obviously a large large denial of D service distributed account attacks. And you were at the forefront of building a lot of the solutions to prevent that like at Perlexic. >> Yeah. >> Um like how did that get going? >> Well, actually it kind of goes back to docset. In high school, people were attacking my servers >> and so we had to figure out better ways to protect them and techniques and tricks and and uh all the different things you need to do to survive a DOS attack.

33:24 And uh I started writing uh kind of my list of what you would do to survive. And then somehow I I presented that at SANS and then it got in in Google >> and then people started calling me and um then we started dealing with real cyber crime, >> extortion, people trying to take, you know, one company sells watches, the other sells watches, the other one is attacking the other watch company during Christmas sale season.

33:50 um or you know Super Bowl's about to start and all the gambling sites go dark. >> Yeah. >> Um things like that and it got pretty serious and and so I built a whole company to protect businesses from these attacks and the way I looked at it is like you need big scale you need to have the biggest most expensive stuff and not everyone could afford that.

34:12 So we'll turn that into kind of a leased service as a as a you know it's one of the first cloud services to exist and it was pretty very successful still exists today. It's alami perlexic. Yeah, >> they even kept the name [laughter] >> which is rare. >> And then we did defense net later on which became F5 Silverline and and then >> so in between all that I really like big scale stuff and bandwidth and uh so the other one we did was called Bit Gravity and that was one of the first or the first videocentric CDNs.

34:45 So big file big object delivery and we had some really great customers there early on. people got it and then we had a lot of tech around it to save people money. You know, people didn't realize hit play and you downloading a progressive file and it before all this kind of media management stuff existed, you're just wasting bandwidth just to scroll into the middle of a video.

35:08 >> Yeah. >> It cost people money. So anyway, we created all kinds of cool stuff around video. And um so as far as like building a new network for consumers, it well actually and it's a little bit for bots too. Um, there's actually a lot of gentic networking components to it. Um, it's uh right up my alley because I love building big infrastructure. I love build building scaled stuff, but now it's kind of like twisting it.

35:34 Instead of doing this for corporations, we're doing it for people. I haven't really seen a lot of that being done, at least well. So, it's going to be fun to see kind of how people adapt to it. But um I think one of the more interesting things about that is uh we might even see some DOS on our network. >> Jack, I'm sure you're ready for that. >> Well, inbound from the internet, but what happens if somebody gets onto my network and starts using it inside and I have to deal with those those silly people.

36:05 >> Yeah. >> But uh you know, the truth is even if you have privacy, there's still laws and you need to at least follow them as much as you can. [laughter] So, >> well, I I think one other interesting thing, so you know, it's it's sort of the and this is the kind of spending spending years talking with you. One other interesting thing is that you created an artwork >> that that actually hung in the at the at the MoMA.

36:30 >> Yeah. >> And it's part of the permanent collection. >> That's there's two pieces. Um Yeah. Uh college project. I studied philosophy. Oddly enough, I studied >> as one does. Yeah. >> Yeah. I studied uh the the art of aesthetics and anyway some other stuff. A lot of it was like theoretical AI. >> Yeah. >> And I'm like, "Wow, actually a philosophy degree makes a lot of sense now."

36:53 >> Totally. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. >> This is helpful. Uh but uh yeah, I started mapping u networks because I was doing I was a penetration tester, hacking, ethical hacking into other companies and I I found that casing the joint was the easiest way to start. So you make a network diagram and where all the stuff is and how it all works and what you think is where.

37:13 And then I started automating that and then I got mouthy at lunch one day and bet some guys that uh I could probably use the same technique to map the entire internet. And uh that started a $50 bet that I was pretty sure I was going to lose. And then I got hit by a car on a bicycle. >> Wow. Okay. >> Yeah. And couldn't walk. And all of a sudden my life got really slow and I sat down and started doing the code for that and that became the OPI project and yeah that ended up in not just MoMA but like Boston Museum of

37:46 Science uh all over the world and different traveling exhibits and um then I did you know animations of that too and it it's pretty neat because it's that project has gotten a lot of attention not just because it looks cool but it there's kind of really interesting history in in in the the video as things are happening. You could see companies crash and burn and all kinds of stuff and I was lucky enough to be able to talk to Event Surf about it and you know have opportunity to ask my questions to him and it's pretty

38:16 cool. >> That is awesome. And you've you you've now done you've probably accomplished two of the harder things to do in this world which is one starting a successful tech company and two being a successful artist. [laughter] >> Being an artist a successful artist is probably much more difficult than starting a tech company. >> Yeah. It was actually kind of strange, you know, after I I went to the opening in MoMA and it was, you know, this giant party.

38:42 >> Yeah. >> And, you know, I was one of the artists and, you know, they had a new exhibit and I had the piece in there and it was just kind of like, oh man, this is kind of cool. There's a DJ and there's drinking and then uh and then the curators, they took me to some really interesting parts of Momma's other properties that they own. And uh it was really cool experience.

39:01 But the next day, I kind of had this imposttor syndrome. >> Yeah. >> Where I just felt super depressed. I'm like, "Wow, am I ever going to experience what an artist feels like ever again?" Because this was kind of like accidental, you know? >> Yeah. >> Um but yeah, I got to do it again. But but it was Yeah. Very strange, surreal uh moment in life. >> Probably the only person in tech that can say that.

39:26 >> Yeah. It's interesting. I have a lot of artist friends that are probably much better artists than me and uh they uh they're all like, "What? [laughter] >> How did you get in the moment?" >> Yeah. How did that happen? >> Yeah. And part of the permanent collection, too, because I know which is neat. >> Yeah. You're one of a few hundred or thousand.

39:43 >> Yeah. [laughter] >> I forget about that sometimes. >> I also forget about the book, too. >> That is true. Yeah. We have not talked about the book. I don't know. Do you want to cover that or >> Sure. Like >> we'll throw this on the list of of crazy stories. >> I keep forgetting about that it exists. >> Yeah. >> And I recently So I I I have an AI powered webcam that watches boats in Miami and >> Yeah.

40:06 Yeah. Yeah. >> And it has and it's 24 hours a day. It's been up almost a year now. And it's got a little chat community of people on there. And one of them figured out who I was and then the other day like, "I just finished reading the book about you." I'm like, "What? [laughter] Like what? What do you mean?" And I'm like, "Oh, shoot. That's right. They figured it out."

40:24 [laughter] >> So, what is the book about you and what is it about? >> Oh, it's been so long. So, it's about I think this the beginnings of Prollexic and tracking down these uh cyber criminals in Russia and specifically these guys exly aggressive extorting Yeah. >> and damaging a lot of our clients. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And so, we just kind of had enough of it and said this has got to end.

40:46 Uh, I mean, we had Christmases destroyed because we were just dealing with customers and network outages. >> Well, and these are like real criminals. These are not these are not just hackers. These are people that are doing human trafficking and they're trafficking narcotics and they have a side hustle. >> There's some stuff going on. Yeah. >> Yeah.

41:03 Yeah. It's like real criminals, right? >> Yeah. And then they went to prison for I think eight years. Hard labor or something like that. and uh I don't know what happened to them afterwards, but um yeah, that that was really and we went out to Russia and uh got turned around. [laughter] We were there in Moscow for a while and then there was like some really interesting signals of like you need to leave now.

41:25 >> Yeah. [laughter] >> So, we left. But, uh yeah, that whole book is about that whole saga of what happened uh through that period of time. It it's really weird because it you know when you live it seems kind of normal but then you look back and go oh geez that was kind of crazy. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> I tell you every time we talk I hear new new stories.

41:47 >> Let's not talk about Burning Man. [laughter] >> That could be a whole episode itself. >> Yeah. >> Actually when was your first Burning Man is next week. >> Yeah. It's uh this coming weekend. >> Yeah. Coming weekend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Are you going this year? >> Yeah. >> Awesome. >> Yeah. I think it's year 14. >> Year 14 >> somewhere around there.

42:05 I I can't remember. We lost a couple to to co so don't remember which ones I skipped. But um >> And you have a famous car. >> Well, my partner has the famous car. Yeah. So Pablo created the Mayan warrior and I created the mind warrior camp. >> Yeah. >> And so we were partners in that whole crazy thing for a while. And boy, that that car went from like, you know, this fun project to like a whole global uh uh phenomenon.

42:33 Like it, you know, people paid money to go see it. It's crazy. Um, but no, it was a lot of it was, you know, what I was thinking about this morning is like when you're passionate about something, it kind of kind of creates that aura around you and then other people pick up on it. And we were very passionate about that project and it I think it kind of inspired a lot of folks to do really interesting other projects that are similar to it.

42:57 And this is the first year we're not taking it to the to the playa. It's not >> Oh wow. >> Not going. It's uh we're done. >> Will you be doing your laser show though? >> Nope. >> All right. No. [clears throat] Well, there'll be something. Uh but it's not mine. It's Pablo's got a beautiful art piece. There's two art pieces that he's bringing this year that'll be pretty cool.

43:17 >> Awesome. But uh no more traveling superpower uh sound stage. It's that's gone. >> How's the vibe out there now that you can get Starlink uh [laughter] internet access? >> It's actually I mean you can argue against it and you could argue for it. I find that if you're running Well, >> for me like when you're organizing a camp or dealing with, you know, oh we ran out of water on the car.

43:41 >> Uh it helps because you can communicate. >> Yeah, totally. >> I because we always bring high-owered motoral radios. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And >> people were using shortwave too, right? Like it's sort of >> Yeah. So you have the radios and then that's kind of fun and you know reminds you of being a kid and stuff but but it's also like you know it's still communications device.

43:57 So out there I don't know it takes the edge off when when it comes to like finding things or organizing things. People don't get stuck at the gate very long anymore. [laughter] >> But if you're sitting there watching movies that's probably the wrong use wrong use for it. >> You don't go to Burning Man to Netflix and chill. >> No. [laughter] No. If you're if you're using it for uh anything other than like local communications, then maybe it's like the wrong wrong use.

44:22 >> Awesome. >> But but it but it has changed a bit. Yeah. >> Yeah. Awesome. Well, as you said, right, like you pursue your passion and that takes you down all sorts of amazing rabbit holes and you are clearly someone that is always pursuing his passion. So, thank you so much for stopping by. Um I am a I am a incredibly happy docet user. Um and uh and and thank you for building it. It's good to get that old internet vibe back. >> Yeah. Well, it's just getting started and thanks for trusting me to help build it.