The playbook for building high talent density teams | Adam Ward, Head of Talent at Cursor Transcript, AI Summary & Key Points

00:00 You have built and are known as someone that can build the most elite high talent density teams. Let's start with how people do it wrong, something you call the funnel of doom. >> Companies think about recruiting like a funnel. I'm going to reach out to 100 people. 20% of those will apply. By definition, that is not the top 20%. That is just the 20 people who you caught on a bad day.

00:20 The way we all recruit is we kind of weed people out at each stage and we hire the remainder. In your mind, they're okay, there are 50 people in the world who can do this. Let's go find those 50 people and you relentlessly pursue and you focus your energy on activating those people, not trying to find them out of the funnel of doom. The mistake that most companies make is they'll say, "Hey Lenny, who's the best product engineer you know?"

00:45 That is the worst question you can ask. The better question to ask is, "Hey Lenny, of all the product engineers you've worked with, who stands out to you as the person who's most collaborative with designers? [music] Or who can translate a framework into a product better than anyone you've ever seen?" >> When you're looking for that first recruiting hire, is there anything you think is important to look for?

01:06 >> Recruiters are excellent at 90 to 110% [music] capacity and are terrible outside of that. If they only have half a req load, they kind of like are useless. But they're kind of great at this like edge [music] of adrenaline rush busy. You want to find those people. >> What are some things you've learned about building incredible teams, keeping people working for you over the long term?

01:26 >> When you look at candidate satisfaction scores, the number one thing that's always there >> Today my guest is Adam Ward. Adam is known in the Valley as the most effective recruiting leader at building elite high talent density teams. He co-founded an independent recruiting firm [music] called Growth by Design, which Cursor acquired fully last year, which is not something that you often hear and is a testament to how good he and his team are and how important [music] talent is right now in today's market.

01:56 Adam is now head of talent at Cursor, helping them scale and build one of the most talent [music] dense teams in the world. Prior to starting his own firm, Adam led global recruiting at Pinterest, growing the company from 200 to over 2,000 [music] employees. And before that, he led a global team of 65 recruiters across 10 offices at Facebook, helping them scale Facebook's tech [music] org from 1,000 to over 10,000 employees.

02:19 If hiring the best people is your number one priority, as it should be, this conversation will open your mind up to what it takes to do that. Adam gets super tactical and extremely specific, and >> [music] >> you're going to thank me for inviting Adam on this podcast to share all of this incredible [music] advice. A huge thank you to Bree Wolfson, Janet Fishberg, Jill Macre, [music] Mike Joiner, and Tim Kendall for suggesting topics and questions for this conversation.

02:46 Before we get into it, don't forget to check out lennysproductpast.com [music] for a free year of the hottest and most beautifully crafted AI products in the [music] world, available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you Adam Ward. Adam, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. >> Thanks so much for having me.

03:08 It's a pleasure. >> You've been doing this for 20 years now, hiring, recruiting, building teams. How different is the market we're in today? How How How crazy is the market in the hiring market we're in today? >> If there's a scale, it's an 11. Um but, you know, I do think there's like there are similarities to the some other markets we've been in over time.

03:30 You know, you mentioned that the years like there was a moment in time where a lot of companies were moving to mobile. And there was like there literally was not a mobile engineer, like an iOS engineer was not a thing. You know, and so but there was a scramble for talent to, you know, build your mobile app and things like that. Like there there was this moment that like that was a thing and it has like some uh similarities to that market and moment.

03:59 I think that the the really the difference here is like everything here is like just so compressed. So, that mobile moment was two years, maybe. You know, where like there was no mobile engineers and then there were like mobile boot camp, mobile engineer boot camps, all these things. You know, like now we're in like days. We're in weeks, you know, there there are no months or year measures right now.

04:23 Um and so that what what makes this like feel very different. >> The other thing that feels very different about this market is there's many people doing extremely well. It's the most competitive, as you said, 11 out of 10 for specific roles. A lot of other people are just really struggling, having a really hard to time finding jobs. >> Yeah, it's a tale of two cities, really.

04:42 Um you can read uh back-to-back headlines of you know, NBA salary offers to a new grad PhD and the next line being a blue-chip company laying off 10% of workforce. You know, like how can both of these things be be true? And you see this shift of how companies are doing work and getting work done. And I really believe we're in this like moment where there's this like resettlement of talent and labor and how work gets done.

05:17 And I really believe that the this like there will be a resettlement and there will be a shift and this will this will come back, but I feel like we're in like the one of the largest gaps of those worlds right now that I believe will and I want to believe will come back closer together. >> This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor WorkOS.

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06:03 Literally every startup that I'm an investor in that starts to expand upmarket ends up working with WorkOS. And that's because they are the best. Whether you are seed-stage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, WorkOS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise ready and unblocking growth. It's essentially Stripe for enterprise features.

06:25 [music] Visit workos.com to get started or just hit up their Slack where they have actual engineers waiting to answer your questions. WorkOS allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to workos.com to make your app enterprise ready today. >> What are roles that are kind of trending up in the most in demand right now?

06:44 And what are maybe less and less in demand? And you have a really unique perspective because not only you're a cursor now, but before that you had your own independent agency working with a ton of different companies. So, you got to see across a lot of different places. What's kind of trending up? What's most in demand and what's maybe softer now? >> Yeah, I think one thing is really in demand is this and there's lots of different names for it, but this like forward deployed engineer, this like technical person who can

07:11 partner with a sales team and partner with a customer to deploy what is a, you know, can be for like some audiences in a company a very technical and maybe overwhelming product or helping companies think about moving from token maxing to like optimizing, maxing to optimizing. And so, that's like a I think a new skill as CFOs start to get the bill coming in.

07:35 Um, you know, the companies are able to help partner with them to think about what's the the best solution for them. So, that's a really unique skill because you are you're deeply technical yourself. You understand the product, but you can also walk into a room with executives and leaders and help conjugate some of that and then even deploy that help them deploy that into their workforce.

07:50 I think that's like a a real supply demand issue right now. I think maybe the thing that is waning, I would say, is like the specialized technical person. The person who is I you know, it's cuz I think you almost see this like squeezing together of engineer product design in some ways where we would love a designer who can actually do for be more of like a design engineer, right?

08:18 And we want that like super deep technical engineer that has a little bit more stronger product sense. And so you kind of see that So I think the people who are maybe like very narrow, very deep, and like overly um specialized in a way are waning like in like in the same way along that vein might also be like the new grad who just hasn't had enough like experience uh to be able to do that where a a product like Cursor or others can do some of that work right now.

08:45 >> This is extremely interesting. I haven't heard it put this way before. Interestingly with the FDE role, it feels similar to the mobile example you shared where not very few people have actually been forward deployed engineers. Uh so what what's kind of the the um I don't know the look of a person that can become an FDE? >> Yeah, I actually think it is that engineer it is that person who maybe was like a full stack engineer in like a three to five years ago is now maybe actually that forward deployed engineer, right?

09:14 And so uh and you you kind of you talk to some of the these folks and they actually like it like kind of unlocks something in them. Like they're kind of like moving out of the terminal and moving in into like the company, you know, and into the customers and clients. And for the right person that like that's super energizing kind of unlocks another chapter or like an maybe a unexpected chapter in their career.

09:35 >> That is interesting. I was expecting you to say AI researchers said this is interesting. And imagine cuz there's not as many of those roles. >> I think so. I think I think it's just a that's a very defined set. >> Mhm. >> And so like you got like it's a very clear bracket of what that is and how many there are and where they are. And I think this like I I think that sometimes the bigger challenges are the nebulous things or the new the very new things uh that I think are sometimes just as challenging as the scarcity

10:01 ones of an AI or ML engineer. >> Just as a final question along these lines, what about just uh the core product design engineering roles? Are those kind of steady as they've been? Is one increasing, decreasing? How's that looking? >> I think they're high I think they're but I think there's you probably see a lot of conversation out there around this, you know, where I think we're getting a little bit back in a good way to the craft of things.

10:23 And so if you think about what AI can do in the design world, uh it can also create a lot of slop in its own way. And so I'm an optimist. Just off you'll you'll probably hear that throughout. >> Same. >> And and I think and I think it's just a a better way to live. Um but I think what I will hopefully help us get back is to like to to the craft of what we do.

10:46 You know, and maybe a an appreciation for it. And I see that in the design world too. >> And is that kind of in saying ICs are more in demand and especially ICs that are have good taste, good judgment? Is that kind of the core? >> Yeah, I think like you know, we've seen this for maybe the last 12 or the rise of the power IC. >> Yeah. >> Um and uh the recognition and appreciation for that work I think has like come like almost in in a full circle moment for them.

11:13 But like I think taste, decision-making, problem-solving, these these characteristics, curiosity, um in all the good ways I think are coming back up to the surface. >> Awesome. Okay. So let me let me kind of zoom out and frame the conversation that uh I'm hoping we have uh broadly. You have built and are known as someone that can build the most elite high talent density teams.

11:37 So many people kept telling me you were the person that does this better than anyone else. This is every company's and founders dream. Build the highest talent talent density team. So I'm going to go through this in a sequence. Uh let's start with something you call the funnel of doom hiring. Talk about the funnel of doom. What is the funnel of doom?

11:59 >> Yeah. And this is a concept I got to um uh recognize my very first as an intern actually in 1998 at a company called Trilogy which is a somewhat of an infamous company around recruiting and it's kind of where I learned the trade. Uh my very first manager Jeff Daniel uh he we did this campus tour around the country talking to CS students and that's where I first heard the term.

12:24 He coined that term so I had to acknowledge that. But I think uh well the funnel did forever uh almost forever as you think about the recruiting history companies think about recruiting like a like a funnel. You know, maybe akin to a sales funnel. Right? Where they think about different stages, pass through rates and things like that. And when you think about how most companies have recruited over these last several decades it's really been candidates come from kind of three buckets.

12:53 They could they apply, they are activated or sourced or they're referred. But if you kind of think about like for a lot of companies who think about talent density typically referrals and sourcing or activation of passive talent is is is really the focus. And when you kind of even narrow further on this like source talent this is how most companies think about it.

13:15 I am going to reach out to 100 people. 20 people will reply just for round numbers. So 20% of those will reply. By definition that is not the top 20% that is just the 20 people who you caught on a bad day for them. Good day for you, bad day for them. And so, you're starting with a sub-optimal set. You're not starting with the top 20% even if this and then the way we all recruit is we kind of weed people out at each stage and we hire the remainder.

13:47 So, this remainder hiring is the output of the funnel of doom. And you say when you say that out loud, you're like, that's kind of messed up. If I If I think about building a talent-dense company over time is that really the best approach? Or does that kind of get me like just above average over time assuming I have really good interview process and hygiene and all these things?

14:07 You kind of regress to the mean over time as you get to as you get to volume. And so, I we just think about this in a different way is like, what if you had confidence up front of who the top 20% was and then you use your assessment process to validate that thesis of who those are. That seems like a better you know, so there's this funnel doom, but there's like within a funnel doom this is a pillar of excellence.

14:35 What if you started with the pillar of excellence and went from there versus having this wide funnel? Cuz imagine how expensive that is to do remainder-based hiring and you kind of hire the person who drops to the bottom. >> Uh I love this especially hearing this. Like this is how hiring has been forever and just hear you describe it, it's clear this is not optimal.

14:56 Why hasn't this changed uh ever? >> There is a um something detrimental about comparing it to a sales funnel. Because in a sales funnel we're you know, as as a a sales person you're typically selling a widget a piece of a software, an item. Those things are relatively static and rational. In recruiting, you have an irrational unit of a hiring manager and recruiter and and in another rational unit of a candidate.

15:24 And so, to believe that things are transactional and linear and passed through in the same ways, I think is a bit of a fallacy. But, sales has been around for hundreds of years? Hundred you know, a long time. Recruiting as a craft or in the kind of this is like 50 years? 40 years? You know, so we're behind on it, but like as humans, we often try to relate a problem to another problem that we know.

15:52 And so, I think this connectedness to sales has been somewhat detrimental to companies as they think about doing this in a more strategic way. >> So, let's follow this thread and help make it very clear what you're describing here. The way I've heard you describe this is you treat every hire as an executive recruiting sort of hire uh and the goal is to go for the top 1% of people out in the world versus kind of who you kind of drops in the funnel.

16:17 Talk more about just that kind of way of thinking about it. >> So, if you've ever worked on like a senior specialist hire or leadership role done well, here's there's roughly like three main steps. One is scoping. And so, if you think about going after the 1%, the most important step is getting really clear on what 1% means to you. And so, if you've ever heard that phrase like I will I'll I'll know what if I'll know it when I see it, I'll know what great looks like, you actually you won't.

16:45 You won't see You won't know cuz you haven't spent like the time objectively identifying what that what great looks like. And so, when you think about scoping, if we can just dive into that the cornerstone piece, really good scoping is thinking about um what are like the skills and experiences you're looking for. You stack rank these things, you get really clear objectively before you talk to any candidate, but it sets up your entire process.

17:08 It sets up your sourcing strategy. It sets up your pitch for them cuz you're asking questions like um why is this role important? What would success look like?" It you know, it really helps you craft those things. It also helps you set up your assessment process of like what you're going to be assessing against. It helps you think about kind of that close of like, "Why this person and why this role is going to have big impact here?"

17:29 So, it really that I think piece of the hiring process is under invested in. But in a leadership search, that is often like known to be a a really strong cornerstone. So, let's say you take like this like really good scoping and then you kind of you pair it with really good market mapping, intelligence, and signals that to give you confidence of who the very best people are.

17:51 So, when you're doing a leadership search, for example, you're like, "Okay, there's really in your mind like, hey, there are 50 people in the world who can do this. Let's go find those 50 people." Right? And so, that kind of that approach, I think you can do at scale if you do that really good scoping and get really clear on what that looks like. And then you take that that like list of 50 people, those targets, and you relentlessly pursue and you focus your energy on activating those people, not trying to find them

18:16 out of the funnel of doom. Um, hi you know, large population. >> Amazing. Uh, I imagine everyone listening to this is going to be like, "We need Adam on our team ASAP." Uh, unfortunately, you're locked in at a company and so we're going to do our best to try to extract as much wisdom as we can in this conversation because you're uh, you have a job. So, this is great.

18:38 So, kind of the three steps here that you walked through of how to approach hiring from this perspective, the way that executives are hired. This idea of going after top 1%. So, step one was be very clear on what top percent looks like. So, just to kind of mirror back what you just shared, be clear on the skills you need and kind of stack rank, here's the skills we need from them.

18:59 This person, what experiences we're looking for and stack rank that. Talk about why this role is impactful and just why this is so important. Is there anything else there just to flesh that up? >> I I those are the general buckets. Like every company will have other specific things that really matter. But, yeah, those would be Yeah, those would be the things And remember, those are all those these are things you're not asking are what companies are they from?

19:20 Uh these are the kind of these are These are objective, somewhat transferable things. Versus trying to piggyback off of someone else's process or definition of great. Cuz we just said almost every company's doing this wrong or has company doing funnel of doom. So, why would we mirror or map someone else's process that we feel like like maybe wasn't perfect?

19:44 Um and your company is different, your product is different. And so, you you owe it to yourself to kind of identify what does great look like for you and who's going to be successful in this role in this product versus what was successful for someone else in a process that maybe you don't have full confidence in anyway. >> So, you're saying specifically don't focus on and it's a trap to focus on the logos on the resume.

20:06 >> I think so. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. There are clearly vintages of companies when you're like, "Hey, you know, this team at this company at this time did fantastic things. And possibly because that person was on that team at that company at that time, they are great." Possibly. That can be like shorthand. Um but that But, most companies jump to that almost immediately.

20:29 >> Awesome. Okay. Step two is mapping out and finding basically the top 50. What are tools that help you do that? Is it like LinkedIn? Is it something else? >> I think it's a combination of things. Um but I think I where I where we typically start is a set of people who we trust in terms of having high taste in talent. And so, it But, I think the mistake though, and that's not that's an obvious point, but the mistake that most companies make is they'll say, "Hey Lenny, who's the best uh product engineer you know?"

21:03 That is the worst question you can ask. The best The better question to ask is, "Hey, Lenny, of all the product engineers you worked with, who stands out to you as the person who's most collaborative with designers? Or who can translate a framework into a product better than anyone you've ever seen?" You got to have to put these very specific characteristics or skills or needs for your team, and then that's way easier for you to conjure up people that way than like this broad question of who's the best person.

21:36 >> And I imagine that maps to the step one, which is where you map the skills, experience, and all that. >> you're asking are mapping back to those that cornerstone work that you did in step one. So, when you ask the right targeted questions to a set of people, you actually start to triangulate around the same names. >> Mhm. >> Like, "Ah, >> Um >> Lenny mentioned them, but so did Sally.

21:55 What What Let's Let's put this person on the list on the target list." >> Okay, so So, part of the strategy here is you talk to people you trust who are awesome, whose taste you trust, ask them these questions. Uh what else helps you find these people in the world? >> So, if you think about um let's Let's pull out like the set of um characteristics.

22:14 Like, "Okay, um the characteristics of someone we want is like really uh curious, uh systems thinker, whatever they might be." Maybe two or three things. Then you're like thinking about, "What companies also share that approach to how they hire?" And you could literally probably do a quick Boolean or AI string and be like, "Hey, look at all the job openings in the world among these 100 companies, which ones also say these characteristics matter?"

22:40 Right? So, you kind of think about, "Ooh, where could they maybe picked up some of these skills for a company who also said that that matters as well." And so, then you start to kind of build like company lists that aren't the normal list you have, but you but in the those they might show up there, too, but let's validate it through the things that we objectively said we wanted for us.

22:59 >> It's so interesting. Systems thinking has come up on a four last four podcasts I've done. Such a trending up attribute people are looking for these days. >> Yeah, I think it's like always been there in a little bit, but I think it's just become really accentuated now uh in this era. >> When you when you hear the term systems thinking, what's what's kind of a way you describe what that actually means when people hear that term?

23:21 >> I I I learned this pretty early uh maybe in the the second company I worked for. And it comes around to a fundamental question of what problem are we trying to solve? Right? And so when I think about systems thinking or when I'm sitting around like, what is like the fundamental root question problem that we're trying to solve? And then how do we take this like larger problem and break it into really small pieces?

23:42 And I've fortunately been working with like engineers most of my life and I just really have learned and I admired how they can take something that's really big and break it into kind of start to tackle that problem that problem. As long as you're anchored into like what is the overall thing um that we're trying to solve here. >> Awesome, very helpful.

23:56 People always hear these terms and they're like, yeah, yeah, I'm a great systems thinker. And so it's always helpful to just hear from different people what that actually means. >> You know, I think systems thinking sounds very strategic, but actually I think it's ex- extremely tactical. The very best systems thinkers take these things and put them into like very small tactics and start to remove each you know, tactic by tactic kind of remove the problem, remove the the blocker.

24:20 >> So to close the thread on this step of finding these incredible people, what what I'm hearing is mostly it's kind of sit around, talk to people, and just jam in a doc probably of here's people that people recommend, here's companies to look at. >> Yeah, and there are tools and there's there's LinkedIn, there's all these things too. Um but I think the most valuable one is the most time-intensive one.

24:42 Which is you spending time in in digging into people's networks. I I I I I you know, we've shared this before, but uh people on my team whose entire job is to dig into our current employees' networks. You could you could automate that. You could use an AI tool and have some fit walk them through a facilitation of it, but nothing beats you and I sitting down every other week for 6 weeks and diving into people.

25:08 You're like, "Hey, last session uh you gave me these three names. I checked out like And then, but what about this person?" You're like, "Oh, yeah. They were great, too." Like, "Oh, well, what's going to happen?" So, you kind of go back to back. And by the way, I'm also holding you accountable for you sending out notes. And what did they say? Oh, they reply?

25:26 You're going to send another note? And so, kind of this like one-to-one, hand-to-hand cultivating of signal I think it's a really important. Of course, those signals go into like a system and a database, but the extraction I think is a hugely personal and effective approach. >> This all sounds very time-intensive and slow and lots of work. How do you You know, there's a reason companies don't hire this way, treat everyone as an exec cuz they're not execs.

25:54 They're, you know, IC engineers, PMs. How do you talk about that trade-off of taking this approach knowing that it's going to take a lot more time and effort? >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh so, I mean, I usually like will ask a question, so founder, like you know, in the all the things are important to you um where does talent fall into that list? And like ah, it's number one.

26:17 Like, talent is the most important thing. Okay. So, if talent is the most number one thing, like there it's not about time or cost like this is the most this is where the focus should be. And so, if if talent is number one, then there should be no obstacles to in terms of effort or resourcing uh or time put in to get there cuz that is paramount to your success.

26:39 You just said that objectively. And so, you know, so if both can't be true, you know, you can't say, "Hey, it's the most important thing and I'm going to outsource it or I'm going to hand it over to a recruiting organization to do. If it's the number one thing that's like that is your focus. >> Like hearing that obviously correct. Why would you not do that?

26:59 And then there's like holy everything's on fire all the time. I have to make time for all this stuff, all these meetings and it's just like is there anything you do to help keep a founder and a team on track and just sticking to this plan knowing it's so much work and time? >> Yeah, I mean typically the founders keeping the company on track around that the very best companies.

27:16 And so and part of it keeping on track means like keeping top of mind. You know, there's also the adage of like what gets measured gets done. So if it's an important thing, we we measure it just like we might measure up time or we might measure customer satisfaction or we might measure revenue and we hold those teams accountable. We also hold hiring managers and leaders and organizations accountable to hiring.

27:42 And so keeping it top of mind but putting in the right systems around rewards and recognition and all those things around it will help people keep it as a priority. But if you aren't measuring it or they will hand that over or they will shirk that responsibility to somewhere else. >> Yeah, one of your big pet peeves is having the recruiters to sit not basically empowering the recruiters and hiring managers not being deeply involved in the process.

28:10 >> Yeah, I think a lot of companies the recruiting owns the hiring goal. And I've yet to be in a company where recruiters are making hiring decisions. So these things are in conflict. Hiring managers or leaders or committees are making hiring decisions. And I feel like the recruiters goal is really about helping provide confidence to that hiring manager to make the right decision.

28:35 They're a confidence engine. They're not a decision-making engine. And so I see a lot of companies where they um they lose the thread is when they essentially hand over the function of recruiting the act of recruiting to a function of recruiting. Right? And so no one should care more about a hire, no one gets the joy or the pain of a good and bad hire than that hiring manager and that team.

29:04 So why then is a recruiter or recruiting organization holding that accountability when they are actually don't they don't have they don't have the decision-making let alone the benefits or or pain or cost of a good or bad hire. >> I want to come back to this uh it's like a different funnel but I'll call it a funnel. Would you still describe it as a funnel but the funnel of non-dooms or another term cuz it's still kind of a funnel?

29:25 >> Yeah. Yeah, there could be they not all funnels are bad so yeah, they're all good. >> talent density. >> Yeah. >> So coming back to the how to discover the best people uh luckily there's this incredible post out there about how Coda approaches hiring by Brie Wolfson that uh was very helpful in helping me prep for this talk and another tactic that she shared of how Coda finds the best people is there's a Slack channel called hiring ideas and people on the team just share here's someone we might want to hire.

29:54 >> It's super active. Uh you know, we could pull it up right now. Um there's someone we want to let's see what people [laughter] are Yeah, maybe we can get some audience input on it. Um so so the the general gist is someone will come across something impressive, a uh a product, a post, um what overheard at a barbecue and they'll drop that person's profile or that X post into the in hiring channel and it becomes a rallying effect around ooh, I've heard of them.

30:26 I know here's how we get to get here's what I think what is compelling to them. You almost like create this quick like strategy of how we might engage this person. And imagine working at a place where the company just is wired that way where people like are excited and enthusiastic and like love the thrill of the hunt and like to go want to work with great people.

30:47 And so we're just like very fortunate to have that as like a ongoing tailwind. Um but that's like that was like an early expectation, if you will. Um an early um almost like I'm going to say it's almost like um social credibility in the company to be able to like surface someone who is great and then people come in and help out and try to get them into the process.

31:14 So as we're creating like that's like such a good like we are not initiating that. We're not dropping in a profile does anyone know this person? This is and uh you know, non-recruiting folks in the company uh dropping in ideas and then the company rallying behind it. >> Amazing. So this is just a really good way to just if we zoom out again, the way most companies hire, there's this funnel people apply, people refer and they kind of work through and then you try to reach out and kind of work through and pick a few

31:38 people at the bottom and your point there is this is like not the top people because they're not going to apply to you, they're not going to make it through the funnel. You don't even know what you're hiring for a lot of times. >> Right. Correct. Correct. And but you know, by the way like, you know, all the hiring ideas aren't always great ideas. They aren't always right for us, but it is becomes this almost like tangential injection into the hiring process that um is often um a great outcome.

32:05 >> And so just to uh maybe make very clear how different this approach is is the opposite. It's figure out who are the best top 50 people for this role in the world and then relentlessly pursue them. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> So let's talk about that part of it. How to actually relentlessly pursue people. What are some tactics and stories there of just how you convince these top people to actually talk to you and then join?

32:30 >> Yeah. Yeah, and I think one of the things you said a few minutes ago is well, hey this can be a very slow process. Right? Um and if you're at like a zero point, your your day zero, that can feel like a slow It can feel like a slow burn. But imagine over multiple days, you're actually planting all of these seeds with potential top 50 people, they're going to come to harvest at different rates.

32:53 But you got to plant the seeds. You got to start. And because it will take weeks for some, months for others. I have stories of years a year of we've worked on on candidates. And but you have to start the clock on that. And you And so how we think about this like relentless pursuit is you'll often reach, you know, one step is just getting them into a conversation, getting a response, getting some kind of engagement.

33:21 Um, but most people will tell you if you get them, it's like not good timing. Here's all the reasons I can't do it. And you're like, "Hey, I'm not I'm not asking you to interview. I'm not asking you to consider a role. I'm asking for a next conversation." And so when you say, "Hey, you know, it's not really a good timing for me right now, maybe uh in the late fall."

33:41 You're like, "Hey, so I totally try what's great. Like can But also, can you come by for um you want to come by for a coffee and see the office? Right? Can you Can I introduce you to this other person on the team who's really fascinated by your work? Can you go chat?" But And so you know it's not it Let's say it is true they can't join till late fall, that doesn't mean you're not connecting them and having conversations on a weekly basis and working that piece.

34:06 And the it it can only move it forward. By doing nothing and actually talking to them in the late fall, at best, you get them even if they're still interested then or someone else has them grabbed them. So we think about this continual touchpoint approach to them to getting them into process. Um, but that could again, we're willing to do that over days, weeks, months, and sometimes years.

34:29 >> When you reach out to someone and mention working at Cursor, now it's part of SpaceX. It's like, oh, this is interesting and cool. And you know, it's like, you never know, maybe it'll work out someday. A lot of companies, and you've worked with other companies that are not as interesting of a brand and as successful. Is there any advice for folks to get someone over the line to even talk that works?

34:46 And you know, I imagine it's all very particular and you want to be just any advice there. >> Yeah, I think it's really spending a lot of time up front to get a sense of what could be uh engaging for them. So, who might that be and what might that topic be? And so, there's very There are There are a number of um excellent people in the world who aren't on any platform.

35:09 There's no information about them. But most you can get a couple nuggets. We spend a lot of time here thinking about who can create a warm intro to that person. Almost as much effort goes into that than it does the actual messaging and the right because if you get the right person, that accelerates it. Right? And once someone's ignored one thing, it's much easier for them to ignore the second and third.

35:35 But if you get the first one right, you like condense that that that activation timeline and effort. >> I've heard that you often say caring is free. >> Yeah. >> Talk about that cuz it feels like that connects throughout this entire process. >> Yeah, I I think there's like all kind of tactics out there that are of varying degrees of cost. But out caring other companies that like when I've built recruiting teams, that's something that we've always talked about.

36:00 Like, we can care more about that candidate than anyone else. That That's in us. That's within us. We can do that. And I think it hit like um over the history of time, when you look at candidate satisfaction scores, the number one thing that's always there is the company generally wanted me. They generally like like they made it feel like I belonged there.

36:21 And so, the more that we can care for our candidates and demonstrate that, I think it's an unfair advantage and it's in all of us. And so it that is like an effort and that is a extra step type of thing. It's the extra uh intentionality that you take that I think um in a very somewhat feeling like transactional business like recruiting, if you're doing this like step-by-step funnel of doom, you kind of get caught up in the steps.

36:45 You get caught up in the numbers game. I need to reach out to 100 to get to 20. I need to have 10 hiring manager screens to get four on-site. You know, you you get caught up in the numbers and you lose the human element. You're looking for the one. You know, so I I tell remind my team like we're trying to hire one person for this role here, not 10. So don't get caught up in the 10.

37:06 Get focus on the one. >> That is such a big reframe in this way of thinking. As you said, instead of this funnel of we need 200 people at the top to get one at the bottom, you're just like, here's the 50 people that would be the the best 50 in the world for this. We just need one of these 50. It feels a lot more com- a lot more doable. >> And we're building hopefully we're building relationships with dozens of other those that could be So when you talk about this being slow, we're planting seeds.

37:29 Planting seeds, we're planting seeds. And I think the other thing that often happens when you kind of get into this funnel of doom mentality is I think you become overly consistent in your hiring approach. And we are very comfortable with bespoke and ad hoc hiring. That doesn't mean we don't have like similar stages for consi- But but like who that next conversation is, what they you know, might focus on.

37:54 I think we get a little robotic sometimes in recruiting with that. And we have like So a lot of companies as they get into like higher volume hiring, they might like, "Hey, we have a pool of these interviewers who can do this type of interview." And they just like let fate decide. They let availability decide who has that next conversation. But you know, the savvy recruiter or the savvy hiring manager is like, "Ooh, they mentioned this thing.

38:19 Who on our team has that shared interest in that pool, right? Can we like be a little bit more prescriptive and can we orchestrate a much better candidate experience by being taking the extra thoughtful step of who might have a better conversation together? >> It's so interesting hearing just how important that initial contact is for the rest of the process and how much of this is for future seed planting versus even immediately.

38:42 >> Yeah, I feel like so we put so much energy to the onsite interview, which I totally get, but honestly the most important one is that hiring manager first conversation. And so it kind of feels like this like 50/50 like hey, half the people you talk to hire manager should come on and like we kind of like I think we under estimate the importance of it cuz this is like who you're going to work with.

39:02 This is the person who should care this person is going to make the hiring decision and so they should be asking the most important questions. They should be getting pulling out the most important motivators from that candidate and I feel like we sometimes maybe we put it into a 30-minute thing often. It's like 30 minutes and it feels like so important to the rest of of that process.

39:19 >> Especially if instead of we just need this funnel and work through a bunch of people, it's this is one of the 50 in the world that could be the best for this. >> You might meet three times, right? You might meet four times as a hiring manager versus before that person actually is like you know, fully in process. >> The way Breed described this in her piece is that you treat hiring as the atomic unit of hiring is the person, not the job spec and not the role.

39:41 >> Correct. And I think that so that makes it incredibly frustrating imagine for my team because you're like oh, what's the process you know, and you're like well, like you know, it's like at this it's like um it's like almost like a decision tree. It could go many different ways based off of this conversation and so but when you are not caught into the numbers game, it feels a little bit less scary when you're really focused on how do we get that person here versus how do we are they the right person for that job?

40:08 >> And because they're on this list, they're innately very popular and in demand. Is there anything else that works for getting them excited to talk and interested other than you know, soft warm intro things you shared. >> Yeah, I mean, we've done lots of like tactics I think to get them involved. I mean, one thing I just love is breaking bread. Having a meal with someone is one of the most human and leveling things that you can do.

40:35 Um you you know, you sharing a meal uh across the table is just a disarming act and a joining act. That I think is just so important. So, that could be a coffee, it could be a lunch, it could be it it you know, it doesn't be super formal, but I just think it is this humanizing activity that um I think is really important. So, we try to we try to center around food and drink as much as possible.

41:01 I think we've done other things I think are very useful, which is like if they are one of these 50 people, they might be somewhat famous or well-respected, they probably have an expertise, having them come in and give a talk to the team. Having them come in and do like a fun side project. They like something these people they love they love to kind of like share and like learn and they're curious and um and so that that but also it's like it demonstrates increased interactivity between the two teams around quality and

41:27 kind of gives them this like realistic preview of being there. We try to play home games as much as we can, bringing them into the office. But we also understand some of the folks like early on might want to go to a neutral site of a coffee shop or something too. But we try to play home games when we can. Cuz you have the power of the team. But you have the power of and so, you know, one analogy I think about is like when you sometimes when you walk on when some people are considering university early in their lives,

41:55 you kind of walk onto a campus and you get that feel in your gut. You know, you can't really describe it, it's just like, "Ooh, this feels like home." We want people to feel that when they kind of walk into the offices of Cursive and like that is like a priceless moment. And by the By the also like a it can be like a um a defining moment. It also could not hit.

42:14 And that's it's good to like suss that out early, too. But for a lot of people, it it does hit and we we like that a moment. >> This uh resonates so deeply with early days Airbnb. I remember Joe Gebbia had the saying, "Just get them in the elevator." And this is because the office was on the second floor of this building. You had to like go in this elevator to get in and that was the whole strategy, just get them in the elevator.

42:35 >> Yeah. Yeah. Um that was that was like more than half the battle. >> Uh along these lines of breaking bread and uh Homecourt, I know uh this might be one of the reasons you guys have a Cafe Cursor right right there near the office, which was and now it's like happening all over the world. Uh I think Ben leads this work, but it there's all these cafes popping up all over the world.

42:54 >> Yeah, I think it's been a interesting um obviously it's it's very much focused on the product and the the user, but he and that team have done a really good job of taking that vibe and putting into a moment. And if you've been in the Cursor office, it almost feels like you're in a um Hogwarts library. It's very warm and soft and like but cafes bring that energy and and as well.

43:19 Uh and so we've tried to kind of lift and you like lift that and drop that in uh really around the world. >> And there's also a lot of chalkboards at the office. >> A lot of chalkboards. It's like has this like some like It's like again like this like disarming warm feel that I think really kind of exudes our like Midwest vibes. That is like kind of sometimes how I describe um Cursor.

43:39 You know, very hard working, very ambitious, but you know, at the same time the work speaks for itself and understated as well. And so uh I think a lot of our office helps uh evoke those vibes, too. >> This episode is brought to you by Mercury. Radically different banking loved by over 300,000 entrepreneurs. And now with command. I've been a customer of Mercury's for over 6 years.

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45:07 This kind of my strategy here. So we've talked about how to kind of figure out what you're looking for, figure out who these people are, how to get them talking to you. So you got them in the interview stage. What are some things you've learned about how to increase your signal on the person and identify if they're a good fit and someone you want to make an offer to.

45:24 >> Yeah, some of it's a little fundamental, which is um research has shown that work samples are the highest predictor of success at a company. But yet most companies are still spending a lot of time doing one-to-one across the table assessments. And so uh you know, I think we are famously known for doing long on-sites experiences for some of our roles.

45:49 Um so where they do a project and they get work to side-by-side. So that gives us a very strong signal. It also gives them the candidate tremendous signal. And so I think this is where most companies get it wrong on the on-site. they're almost always buying. This is like we are assessing, we're extracting information. We're not giving much back to the candidate.

46:10 And I'm a big fan of the power of self-selection. And self-selection really good self-selection serves really good inputs and data. And so we want that experience with the candidate to feel more two-way than most. So we really think about crafting that on site experience through who they might meet. We talked about that. We really clearly handpicking who they might meet for those interviews.

46:33 We We do a lot of work sample and project type of work to give us good signal, but we also really curate who's greeting them. Who's sitting beside them for lunch. Like we always try to put it around a meal, a dinner, or lunch, or a breakfast. And everything is really curated to make that as high quality experience for them and get them the data. But we you know, but also us getting data from people that we feel like are the most going to connect with that person.

47:00 >> Who runs point on this sort of experience? Is it a recruiter or is it the hiring manager? >> Um I would say I think it's the recruiter um primarily as the quarterback, but they're pulling lots of levers. Um and so the hiring manager is probably going to have the most insight into some of those people. Our recruiting coordinators uh are tremendous and I think we probably and they they do a lot of this um hosting with us as well.

47:27 Um and so our recruiting coordinators of course do some scheduling, but they're probably doing more of this candidate shepherding. So imagine a candidate was with us for a day or two, there's lots of like moving pieces and helping them move from a workstation where they might be doing a project into lunch, back to that, helping them get their environment set up.

47:43 You know, so um there's a lot of people in play. We ask our quarterback and our quarterback to be our recruiter to be the quarterback, but a lot of the you know, the insights come from hiring managers and execution with the coordinator, too. >> It's interesting just how much of the experience and process changes with this worldview of the every person we are talking to is very special and is they're very rare and these are the best uh for this role.

48:08 And so it it's clear how much of it trickles down into thinking deeply about every touchpoint along the journey versus the typical journey. >> And imagine that you have a teams and employee base to like understand that well, they went through it. So you get over this like tipping point moment with the company where they had that experience. So they recognize, acknowledge and now they're part of How fun is that?

48:32 Right? They had a great experience, now they get to help deliver that for this next batch of people. So you kind of create this like flywheel opportunity once you get kind of over that initial hump. >> I just remembered actually, I had a friend applying for a job at Crossover and he said it was the best candidate experience he's ever had. >> That's amazing.

48:52 >> remembered that. >> [snorts] >> And so So by definition, we thought about like doing a lot of um scoping of really great people. Not all of them are going to be a fit for us by their choice or ours. But every one of them can walk away as a net promoter. And by the again, by definition, they're some of the best. Those promoters weigh more and count more than others because they're influential, they're great, they're known to be good.

49:14 And so they may never come back to us, but they might tell you who now tells his audience or they might tell you who then you you mention something at a barbecue and like now it becomes this like groundswell and you start to build a little stronger magnet and that activation becomes a little bit less hard if you do that well. >> Mhm, absolutely. Uh the work trial piece, I saw an interview with Michael Terrell talking about this and he said how he they tried to get rid of it because it's obviously adds a lot of load and

49:44 and some people don't want to be doing these things and he said that it just totally tanked their signal and they had to bring it back. >> Yeah, it's a huge commitment, you can imagine, of time. Uh Um but if talent is your number one thing, then you know, that is a good investment of time to do it. You know, when we all have a role to play in recruiting at the company.

50:06 Um not everyone is like carved out or you know, best to do work trial work, but like some are. You know, some but some can do the lunch. Some can do the greet. Some you know, so so there's like lots of different ways that people can play a role. Um but yeah, when we ran that experiment, um you know, cuz it is it is quite expensive. It is also a big ask of candidates.

50:27 We really struggled to have confidence in our decision. Again, this is this is a confidence building function. And so um we are excited to bring it back. >> So good learning there is it's like if you are not doing this, you're lacking significant signal. >> Possibly. Yeah, I think so. You know, and I think there I don't think there's a lot of maximums or absolutes in this business.

50:48 Um but I think for a lot of companies, it's hard to think of a better way than you know, doing side-by-side real work to get those signals. Obviously, some of it you know, in this case is like a technical signal, but imagine the amount of like core values and uh collaboration and other things you get like other signals you get over a stretch of time that can be um arguably more important than the specific technical skill.

51:14 >> What do you do for like PMs or like I don't know, go to market or ops people? Is there something like that? >> Yeah, we have a version of this across. And so uh the go-to-market um team does like a challenge where there's like a a problem they work through like a challenge together, like a challenging customer and things like that. And that's like often like one-to-one with the hiring manager.

51:32 Um product uh does a similar um like project type together as well. So we have like versions of that that I feel like are tight traded to the function, but also the role and things like that as well. So we try Try to be like uh uniform across this um cuz these functions are very different. >> One of the classic criticisms with the work trial is you're doing work for the company and it's like I would just solve problems for you for free.

51:56 >> Yeah. >> What's the velocity on the problem they tackle say engineering or PM? >> Yeah, there's a set of problems they can choose from. So you know and so we feel like they have like some direction and discretion. We also are very open to right sizing it for them based on where they are and their availability and time too to a a certain extent. So we try to be flexible flexible and understanding around that.

52:19 And we also you know we'll sometimes use Saturdays too. You know so like we understand it can be hard to take away time away on a work week or a traditional work week and so we totally get it. It's it's a big ask a big commitment. We think it's worth it but we're also willing to schedule that when that works for them. So there's this like conflict around a lot of time and effort that could feel slow.

52:45 But when they're ready to go we are fast. Right? We make up that time. So if you and I were having an initial screen you're like yeah I'll I'll be able to talk in two I'm like open up your calendar I have their calendar great you're going to talk to them in an hour. Right? So you like you like move once they're ready to go you got to capitalize on that.

53:04 You can't create openings for them to come have second guessing. So when we go we go but we it might take a lot of time to get up to that moment. >> Moving ourselves further down the funnel what's kind of the moment when you decide we're going to make this person an offer? Is there something that you look for specifically or and or or just what's the process like a hiring committee meeting or something else?

53:25 >> Yeah, we we debrief as as immediately as possible as a team. Each function has a little bit of a different hiring process of what that looks like but we we don't have hiring committees it is hiring manager led. They get lots of input from the team. And you remember the the role of the hiring manager is you know, it's not a democracy. Hiring manager is holding there that group accountable for getting helping them get them the right inputs to make out the right decision to make the best decision, hire or no hire.

53:57 Uh, and so we try to frame it in that way. Make sure we get really good signal on it. Um, and we try so we try to move really quickly. So debriefings typically same day if not next day. Um, and and you know, kind of like make that decision then that decision goes to the founders for for stamping. >> Awesome. Okay. Then you get to the offer stage. There's a bunch of stuff here, but one is just uh, there are many massive offers happening these days.

54:24 Say Okay, so say you made an offer to one of these top 50 people and they're like, "Okay, but I also got this offer from Anthropic for a bazillion dollars." >> Mhm. >> How do you handle that? And also just is that like super frustrating or is it like, "Oh wow, more signal this person is incredible." >> Yeah, I think I think it can it can be both. There's room for both.

54:42 Um, I think that um, the goal is to not be selling at the close. We're we're we're trying to sell throughout. And so, if you think about the craft of recruiting, the craft of recruiting is up front getting a really clear on this person's motivations. And what might be why they might make a move and for what. And then making sure that that entire experience hits to those pieces.

55:11 So the at the end is a culmination not a start. Right? It feels like almost like a natural per outcome of it. Where it's just like, "Oh, this is almost like this um, just like a sumptive next step of Yeah, and here's the offer that we talked about a lot." You know, like you know, and so so we versus like kind of starting the the clock or starting the conversation on a close.

55:36 I think we try to get back to those motivations, so we might think about how we would differentiate against intrinsic size-wise or the role or the team or the people you work with. Um we try to think about we really try to focus on the intrinsic things, not the extrinsic things, which is very hard to do when you're you're getting MBA players like offers and salaries and sometimes great bigger than that.

55:59 But we really try to focus on people who uh want to be want to be here. You know, and um often when people are thinking about um their job search and what might be next, they maybe start with a set of things and we maybe help them discover other things along the way. And we might discover at the end that it actually this is not the right fit and that's okay and we should be we feel good about walking away from that.

56:22 Uh but often it's about helping them discover that actually maybe this is the right place through that journey. >> How often do people take a job without with that doesn't have the highest comp? Like is that common or is that rare? >> Yeah, I think you're trying to mitigate comp as a reason people come or don't come. Um and often that means you're not at the it's not the highest number.

56:45 And I think you you know, we've all probably talked with people who maybe at some point in their career chased just the largest number. And I think what you realize six months in is like that just becomes your new level of like comp expect you know, comp life. But you're you're not excited about the people you work with or the work you're doing. Um and so we try to kind of mitigate that as a as a piece, but I think that happens happens a lot.

57:08 You know, and also rightfully so, you know, that we've probably lost people where maybe we were the highest one and they went somewhere else too and like if that's the right fit for them, this is this is going to sound sound a little polyannic, but like I fundamentally believe there are right people for right companies at the right time. And if they discover at the end of that that we're not, that's the right call for them and like as a recruiter, if they're not the right fit, I literally have to redo that work in 6

57:34 months. I don't want to redo that work. I'd rather let's let's figure that out right now um and have that more open conversation. >> You should build uh an agent [clears throat] that helps you decide and figure that out, which company is the right fit for you right now in this time cuz that sounds really valuable. >> That would be That would be That would be super interesting.

57:53 >> Uh something that I've heard Anthropic does that I've never heard anyone do, uh similar to Tesla, they don't have a They don't let you negotiate. They're just like, "Here's the offer." Do you feel like that's like an only Anthropic thing that they could do because they're just Anthropic and or is or is that something you think about? >> I I mean, I've thought about it.

58:10 I see, you know, uh over time different companies have done that. Um and I think what I respect about it is like you make that call. And um and you kind of stick with it and there's a commitment to it. Um but every company's different and I think the approach is is So, I I respect it, but um I I think about it, but it you know, may not be right for us.

58:31 >> From the candidate's perspective, what are what are some mistakes that people make when they get an offer that kind of shoot themselves in the foot? >> Um the general advice I give to candidates is when you think about your offer and if you're negotiating, it has to just fit a line of logic. Right? And so, if you are asking for a certain piece of compensation or certain other piece of it, like what is it rooted Well, how like walk me through like your the logic behind it and like how like that I think that makes it

59:03 easy for that person to understand, but also easy for them to communicate that forward to maybe a different decision maker as well. Um so, I see um candidates who maybe a little bit all over the place on that uh where earlier it was this and now it's this and it's kind of it's kind of the add-on type of thing versus a candidate who's coming in of like, "Here's the four things that are important to me."

59:23 and being clear and consistent with it um as as much at the from the outset as you can. Not all things can be there at the outset. Um, that makes it very logical and easy for the company to kind of engage with that. >> Versus just finding random excuses for more income. >> Correct. And you know, I think what a company generally knows is like we're not their top We're intrinsically not their top choice.

59:46 Mhm. Right? And so, um, we're trying to win head and hearts here. And it's not we're not trying we're not we're not trying to, um, we're not trying to buy that out. >> How just like mind-blowing are these comps these days? I imagine you've seen so many. >> Yeah. I think it's all it's all true and worse, um, or higher. I think the the open question a lot of us the AI companies are like how does this like where does it go how does it go from here?

01:00:12 Like how does this end? Nobody knows. Um, but it does feel like the unit of measure that matters the most is the most fixed and finite, which is time. It is a race against the clock to get the model, the talent, you know, and like that is like the all that is like the thing that matter the most is the most precious. Clearly for some companies there's more money and there's more other things, but time is like is our is the most fixed and important asset right here in in this market.

01:00:47 >> Just coming back to the AI researcher trend, it's crazy how these people used to be just like off on the side building these AI models ML models not that exciting to anybody and now they're like the most in demand. >> And I remember I helped, um, build out the, um, the research group at Facebook before they had they they just not hire PhDs even, you know, advanced degrees really much at all.

01:01:09 And um, you know, this is uh, 2010 or something. And I remember meeting just like this set of academics really, who were grow getting this like growing frustration of their work not ever making it outside of those the halls of academia. And so, I'd like to very excited for that population to have like this moment. You know, they've been arguably the underpinning of technical innovation for decades.

01:01:45 And they're having their moment. And like well well well deserved. >> Kind of along those lines to close out this the funnel of let's call it the funnel of joy instead of the funnel of doom. >> Yeah, love it. >> I heard from one of your candidates, here's the quote that I got, uh that you and your team's ability to close and convert candidates with offers to accept is extraordinary.

01:02:08 What are some things you do that help get someone over the line that are kind of on the fence? >> Yeah, um so I think there's like a couple things there. One, I I I'll just re-mention quickly, which is that the closing is happening throughout the process. Um in terms of like who they're meeting and motivations and like we're removing objections along the way.

01:02:28 Uh so that's one. I think the second is um closing is a team sport. And so, when we have a candidate, um particularly like a high-profile, high-caliber, there are often daily stand-ups around that candidate about what we're doing to get them to yes. And that might be 10 minutes, but it's not the amount of time, it is like I focused energy every day around what we are collectively doing.

01:02:54 And so that could be the hiring manager, recruiter, but also could be former peers. You know, there's like lots of people who influence that, and we try to just be very intentional about making sure that person feels cared for and belong and coming here and like staying on top of things. The third thing I think is we just try to make it very personal.

01:03:11 Um and so, just this week, you know, 2 days ago I I just saw and we try to share these stories internally, too. Cuz this is how builds the culture of recruiting. We kind of share these stories back to the company. Uh but someone was sharing we were working on a candidate in New York and we learned that uh through getting to know them that they went to a performing arts high school and were a classically trained violin violinist.

01:03:35 And we were just kind of very into like stringed uh instruments. Um so this person um I found this like specialty instrument store in New York City and bought this like kind of unique Turkish guitar almost almost violin guitar thing. And they were meeting for like a dinner where they got the offer and they presented that gift to them. And so it was a couple hundred dollars maybe, right?

01:04:05 Not a lot of money. Particularly relative to like the size of offer and the size of impact that we thought that you know that someone's going to have. Uh but it's like it's the thoughtfulness and the touching uniqueness of it and the personal moment of that that like I think stands out. And I think when a candidate thinks about having the best candidate experience, often they feel like wow, this felt like tailored to me.

01:04:26 This felt unique to me. >> I know there's also a Slack channel that gets created per for each candidate. >> Every candidate Yeah, so I think when you talk about the stand-up, sometimes that's also strategy and updates and like and so there's the same rallying effect to activate is no different at the at that close and each candidate has their own channel.

01:04:44 >> Just so much of this just keeps going back to intentionality around every specific candidate and not treating it like the funnel, but just this is the atomic unit, this person. What can we do throughout the entire process to make them get excited and see if it's a fit? >> Which is hard to do when you're doing at scale at the funnel of doom. So when you are thinking about a hundred candidates for every role then this is not that does not scale.

01:05:06 But when you're narrowing that down to a small percentage of people that you've been kind of laying groundwork with over time, it come because it because now people are moving faster through those steps and it's a smaller number of people. So, the time that you're taking, you know, holistically for that funnel, you're just displacing putting it in different places.

01:05:27 >> It's so interesting and it's such a different approach. I've never heard of anyone hiring this way. >> Yeah, and we had this like thesis when I was at Growth by Design, you know, around like there's a we think there's this different way to do this. We'd seen all these companies over time and work with labs and all these things were like, "Wow, like these companies are literally at the cutting edge of a technical revolution here.

01:05:47 Probably the most exciting one we've seen in millennia and they were recruiting in a web browser way. And we're like, "If a company like had this willingness to commit this time and effort as this collective force, they could really have an unfair advantage when it comes to talent." And when you think about companies over time, whether they become this iconic logo or one that we know we no longer recognize, it often isn't the first company, the fastest to market, the first idea.

01:06:20 It's actually execution. And execution comes down to having the right talent at the right time. And when companies figure that out, they're like, "Ooh, this is the most important thing and this is how we're going to approach it." And so, when we met Cursor, we're like, "This could be fun." >> Cursor is actually such a great example of exactly what you're describing because it feels like throughout the entire history of Cursor, it was always just like, "How are they going to survive?

01:06:44 There's these model companies building these things, the IDEs like like people are moving away from IDEs and it's been incredible to watch Cursor execute and get ahead of each of these shifts. Whenever people doubt that there's an opportunity here, it just keeps growing and killing it. >> I mean, it's not too long ago it was like tab auto complete, you know, on it and like now we're in the fully cloud agents and it's just um But just remember the time span is like once.

01:07:11 You know, it's >> [laughter] >> the condensed nature of this is just wild. >> I came to the office at one point, and I got a tab button, and now it's just like no longer even a thing. >> Yeah. Now it's just cute. Yeah, now it's just on the shelf. Yeah. >> And just talk. Something that one of your colleagues wanted me to ask you is just what it what is it like to work with an exact team who truly believes recruiting is the most important thing?

01:07:31 >> It's a gift. And at times incredibly frustrating. So the gift part of it is like imagine that uh how much they care like trying to convince a founder to go have a conversation or to do anything recruiting like that is not a problem here. And like we've you know uh worked with companies who you know where you're like you're trying to like pull them in to things.

01:07:55 Um so it's a it's a true gift. The the you know the challenge is like they're in your Like they're in it, you know, like they understand it. Like the the cursor team hired their first 80 people roughly 80 people on their own. They know how hard they know how to do it. They know how hard it is, which is great, but also like they love it and they're in it, and they want to do it.

01:08:19 And so there can be zero ego about this of who owns you know who has what piece and like it's an all hands on deck. And so sometimes that can be confusing on who's doing things and things that you know you find out about things after the fact that happened like but like it's like I don't know I'll take that every day. That is extremely net positive, but there you know there's always like a a counter balance to uh such an advantage like that.

01:08:42 >> So interesting. That's like CPOs often are frustrated for that reason where the founders are always in there in their >> Yeah, but they care. You know, like I will I'll take the I'll take the effort and care and with that with that tax any day. >> And then one of your hot takes is that the recruiter the recruiting team should be the highest paid team within the company.

01:09:00 >> Yeah, one of them. Yeah, if not the I mean if if you think about the this impact that they're having, um that uh and like the you know, I feel like there's a supply and demand crisis around really strategic recruiters because of the somewhat transactional nature we've made recruiting over time. And so, I just think there's a really small supply of recruiters who can function at this level and at and at this approach and style.

01:09:27 And so, like any other labor market, it's a it's a cost of labor thing and there's just very few of it. And so, um we think that they have tremendous impact. Um but it's like a really rare skill set. >> Uh something I wanted to ask you that I forgot to ask is uh we talk a lot about talent density. How much of it is about the person specifically versus the team that you assemble around them?

01:09:54 >> Yeah, I feel like where companies like overly focus is like an individual. And unless they are a team of one, it's actually like the the you know, if you think about amazing leadership and amazing managers, they're actually quite great puzzle builders. And they think about building these teams that are complementary uh together and then help them excel.

01:10:17 And so, talent density is not a single piece unless like the numerator and denominator are both one. You know, and so, but that's not the case. Often, this is one over how many people. And so, talent density is actually a a collective nature of of individuals and humans. But we often because you are recruiting one human at a time, I think sometimes we get overly focused on that specific 10Xer thing, you know?

01:10:41 Um and I actually would think I like to think a little bit more around exponential around 10X of like a a team versus an individual. I don't think you can have a 10X person on a bad team. It just like doesn't exist. You know, I think you know, like I used to think when we were like at my last company, we can't we can't be a great uh client service provider if we don't have a great client if we don't have a great client.

01:11:06 We can get There's like just a bar there. And similarly, a person that is might be excellent is going to be throttled if they're not on a strong and supportive team. >> That makes sense to me. Okay, I'm going to ask you a bunch of random questions. These are uh again, I think people are going to be hearing this and be like, I need Adam immediately when we need help.

01:11:24 Uh and they're not going to be able to get that cuz you know, you got a job. So, I'm going to try to extract as much as I can while we're here. Um when is Say you're an early-stage company, think about hiring, setting up your first your hiring approach, what's kind of the most common ways that early-stage companies and founders eff up their early team and hiring?

01:11:43 >> Yeah, I think the thing they try to do is do this um silver bullet hire, um which is a first like head of talent, and they kind of um collapse two competing skill sets into one. Okay, so when you are generally as a founder, when you're ready to hire your first recruiter, you're probably behind on hiring. There's a problem to solve there. You're behind on hiring.

01:12:05 So, then maybe there's like a a debt of roles to fill. 5 10 15. But you also are hiring someone at this stage cuz you want them to build like a system. Like just like we're like they might be like, "Wow, like I want to build something like Adam's talking about." So, you're trying to build this like hire someone who can also put in the right pieces to help scale out.

01:12:24 And like those are competing interests. Because person who wants to come in and like just any new hire, they want to like prove out, they want to make hires, but they might not put in the system, or they might put in the system, but not make any hires, and now you're like not sleeping. And so, they try to collapse this into one role, and generally that's a mistake.

01:12:44 And so, we recommend kind of decoupling those things. So, that means you still might will to one person, but can you get some help with the other one? I'm going to hire the person who's going to put in the right system, but I'm going to partner them with a uh contingent recruiter or something else to like make some short-term progress while they and kind of like teach the company how to do this through these roles that they fill that they're helping orchestrate or vice versa.

01:13:08 I might bring in someone to help us put in the right uh foundation which like we did at GBD and then they get to hire like a really high-powered IC recruiter who can connect execute. >> Amazing. That makes all the sense in the world. Uh when you're looking for that first recruiting hire, is there anything else you think is important to look for? I know it depends on maybe which of these two buckets they're going to be in, but any other advice?

01:13:31 >> Yeah, I think number one is that they are like curious and business-focused. Um they're an early member of the team. They got to be really curious and understanding of how the business works and how each of those hires is going to change the slope of the business. >> Mhm. >> Um and so >> Mhm. >> you know, often that means that they have all these interesting it shows up in lots of way curious people, um but I think that's the number one thing I think of.

01:13:56 The number two one which I think and I think these sometimes get switched is just like high motor, you know, someone who like understands the grind that it will be and the pace that it works and is down for it. And that doesn't have mean they have to be younger or or it doesn't mean anything. It's just that they love um working at this edge of overwhelmness.

01:14:22 And so I often think about my team is like we want the water level to be like right here. Uh and so you're like you're breathing, but you know, and if you if you've met any kind of recruiters, recruiters are excellent at 90 to 110% capacity and are terrible outside of that. Right? If they only have half a req load, they kind of like are like useless.

01:14:46 Or if they're like, know, way overwhelmed, also just overwhelmed. But they're kind of great at this like middle ground of like edge of adrenaline rush busy. And you go you want to find those people. >> Oh, man. So, along those lines, uh I've heard from a bunch of people that you just have a huge followership on your team. There's a lot of heads of talent from other companies that decided to join your team to be ICs.

01:15:12 What are some things you've learned about building incredible teams, keeping people working for you over the long term? >> One thing I learned is at each place my team has looked different. Um because the company how they think about recruiting or the product is different. And so, the Cursive way demanded a different type of team. Right? It demanded this level of recruiter and who has like understands the leadership recruiting motion, who's not going to get caught up in the numbers game of the funnel to do.

01:15:43 Like they have this confidence and they have you know, they they have a network that they can tap into. And so, we I think we we talked a lot about hiring managers other people networks, but seasoned great recruiters have their own networks, too. Like you have a couple of recruiters in your life that you trust, that you probably would like seek advice on, you know?

01:15:59 And so, we try to collect those people, too, cuz they they can be as influential in tapping their networks as uh a technical leader, for example. Um so, and then I kind of just kind of think about like three attributes um of someone who I want on my team. Uh so, one, uh I want people who are excellent humans and excellent in what they do. And I'm not willing to trade that off.

01:16:26 We are going to spend most of our waking hours during the week together. And we should be all be selfish enough to want to work with great people, great yeah, great humans. The second is um people who I look for people who have a chip on their shoulder, something to prove, um love the craft. They have this is like internal drive and motivation to be excellent.

01:16:51 Um and that can show up in lots of ways and I try to get to that. And then the third thing is I look for people who put team over themselves. And so this is really important clearly for the team I built now. They could be running recruiting at lots of places. Um but what they've realized is that no one really aspires to get to middle management. We kind of end up there.

01:17:12 But what they did realize is like they love the craft of recruiting and they love to be challenged, they love to learn. Um they want to work with great people. And so when I would go out to my network and I'm like, "Hey Lenny, who are three people you know that are excellent humans and excellent recruiters? They just just have this natural drive or chip on their shoulder and like they put team over themselves."

01:17:32 You're like, "Ah, you should talk to Janet." You know, you like you can conjure those things up. And so we've really tried to build a team uh of those folks here and I'm really excited about the people we've collected. >> Uh it's a good sign when I'm just like, "Wait, I want to work for Adam. This sounds really great." >> And I try to be this balance of because recruiting is sometimes around inspiring your team, but it's a deeply operational function.

01:17:58 You know, and so I've tried to find this balance of where I can be like in the weeds, operational, understand it, be in it with them, but also sometimes lift up and help like paint the bigger picture, too. >> Amazing. Adam, we've covered so much ground. We've gone through the whole funnel and more. Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you wanted to share, anything else you want to leave listeners with, any nugget you want to double down on?

01:18:26 >> I mean, one thing that we didn't talk about which I think is happening, I'm seeing more of, is renegs on offers. And so I think a lot of companies get to the yes of the offer acceptance and there's often like a gap of time. Uh in the more senior they are often it's, you know, beyond a couple weeks. Uh we think about a second motion happening after offer accept.

01:18:47 Which is, you know, where we are a button seat business in recruiting and there's like a big window there where someone has like, ah, they accept the offer and we kind of like go on to the next one. But what are we doing between offer accept and join? And there's two key parts of that. One is like make sure that they show up. The second is like a bit of a pre-boarding and helping them have a fast ramp by staying connected with them.

01:19:09 So, we'll do dinners with other people who have accepted. We try to create essentially create community around them. We'll send them a Cursor laptop. You know, kind of feels like a presumptive you've joined kind of way. We do these dinners. We do these like touch points. Um one is help to make sure like that delivery happens, but also to feel like they they start to get excited, too.

01:19:28 They start to kind of visually realize what's it going to look like. >> Wow, that is so brutal to have gone through that entire funnel. Got the offer, made the offer, accepted the offer, we're in and just no. Oh man. And you're saying this is a trend, I imagine, because just the market is so hot and they're getting better offers, offers that they didn't expect.

01:19:47 >> Correct. >> Yeah. Uh I love I feel like there's this lake of things we didn't talk about. Is there anything else, any other trends, any other trends, things that you noticed of like, wow, this is changing in the hiring landscape? >> I think maybe the other trend I think we see like the rise of the talent engineer. I don't know if you've seen that out there, you know, the kind of the the the function within a recruiting team who is a possibly former engineer who's like building tools and things like that.

01:20:10 And uh my warm take, not a hot take, my warm take is like every recruiter should be a talent engineer. Like the things that recruiters now have at their fingertips that they could build in Cursor or other tools is really phenomenal. Um and in earlier companies I was in, we were often beholden to like begging for engineering time to build us tools or functions or features.

01:20:33 And now that's like that's in us. Like we have that right now uh in our team. And so uh I want a future state of my recruiting team to feel like they are talent engineers. Um versus you know leaning on someone else on the team to help them like build a tool, if that makes sense. >> Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. It's interesting. There's go-to-market engineers like every function is going to have their version of engineer.

01:20:58 >> Yeah. >> Over time. Engineers engineers. Uh well, Adam, with that we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> All right. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most other people? >> Yeah, this is super nerdy. Um so there's two. There's one of it's like that like I read in undergrad um that has stuck with me.

01:21:23 And it's emotional intelligence by Daniel Goleman. And you know it's kind of the the rise of EQ um as an important piece of it. And I just feel like emotional intelligence right now, more than ever, is so important in this like AI age. And so it was like super transformative to me way back then and I think it's like really important now. Uh and the other one I love for founders is just uh the high-growth handbook by Elad Gil.

01:21:47 I just think it's set I'm a big fan of a book where you can just jump to a chapter and get an answer. And it's not this like linear piece you got to work through. And so I think it's such a great reference guide on different problems. And you know for the most part building companies um the components are the same. You know the core principles even when that came out several years ago, I still think hold true.

01:22:08 So I like the the high-growth handbook. >> Uh a Stripe Press uh shout-out. Uh high-growth handbook. I imagine you've read Scaling People by Claire Hughes Johnson. It feels really up your alley. >> Yeah. Love her. >> Yeah. Another Stripe Press. Uh amazing. I love that yeah, Elad's book is still useful. Like I don't know how many years later. >> Amazing.

01:22:28 >> Yeah. >> Uh favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed? >> Yeah, I'm going to I have not seen a movie in years. Um I feel like my life My life is at like 20-minute chunks. Um but I have been watching a series uh The Pit. Um and I'm from Western Pennsylvania, so from like the Pittsburgh area, and not only is that like a it's not only is it extremely well done, um but two, it makes my life feel less frantic.

01:22:57 Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Living hour It's about the only thing that can make my life feel less frantic is living an hour in an ER. Um and like all they they go through. And I often, you know, try to tell my team around like the gravity of things. I was like, "Hey y'all, like we get to work for this amazing company and product things, but people are not living and dying every day by decisions that we make.

01:23:20 In The Pit, they are, you know? So, it's kind of just gives us like leveling part. Um and then third, I think they just like capture the ethos of that region, which is like my core, which is like Western Pennsylvania blue-collar grinder. Uh and I just think they do a really good job of capturing that. So, I've been I've been watching that uh when I can on some airplanes."

01:23:42 >> I love that for most people that shows very stressful and for you it's calming because [laughter] it's less stressful than your life. >> Just the relative relative nature of things is helpful. >> And like have you watched The Bear cuz I feel like that'd be another example? >> Yeah, that I think if I was a probably Chicago guy, that would probably that would probably resonate.

01:23:58 Although, I have seen it. Yeah. >> Oh, man. Okay, uh couple few more questions. Uh do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love other than Cursor? >> Yeah, I think it's still I think one is like semi-recent one isn't. I'm a huge granola fan. I think I was super early on granola, and I love that they continue to innovate.

01:24:16 Um and really just did Yeah, just great product decisions, easy to use. Um they're great on feedback, too. If you've ever given them feedback, they're phenomenal. The second I've been using a lot is Whisper, WhisperFlow. And just trying to get out um quick notes to my team. I am better this than this on turns of like my thoughts. And so Whisper's been amazing uh on the go to drop notes to my team.

01:24:44 >> Listen to this, Adam. You may not know this. Uh >> I don't. >> Subscribers to my newsletter get a year free of not only Cursor, but also Granola and WhisperFlow >> not know that. >> 30 other incredible products, Replit and Google and lovable and it's out of control. So, if you like any of these products, >> [laughter] >> ladiesproducthunt.com. >> That was not uh that was not a place at all.

01:25:09 That was just yeah, I did not know that. >> It's just we have all the best products for free for a freaking year, including Cursor. So, there you go. ladiesproducthunt.com. >> [laughter] >> Okay, two more questions. Uh do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to in work or in life? >> Yeah. Um I think there's like three things um that I come back to and I you know, try to um instill in my kids, too.

01:25:30 So, one is like work hard. I think the value of hard work um is hard to understate. Um and something like I grew up in. Second is like do great work. So, let's not confuse the two. And third is like be helpful. And I think like one thing I've really tried to do and you know, maybe we part of the reason I was able to help build this team is I've really just tried to be helpful.

01:25:57 And if you talk to founders out there, anyone, I will answer their emails. I will jump on a 10-minute call with them. And I want to think that people come to me for help and advice and like it's the right ones. And so and that's just has now like I now getting to reap some of that of people who like want to you know, come to the work on the team, but so those three things I've really um tried to live by.

01:26:22 >> That is an awesome set of uh principles to live by. Uh clearly it has contributed to your success. I'm going to steal them all. Those are really good. That's like a good tripod of things to to be focused on. You talked about being a dad. Final question. Uh people said you're uh you're an expert on on the importance of a well-placed dad joke. I'm not going to ask you to do a joke unless you want to, but more so just like what's something you've learned about raising kids cuz I'm a I'm a dad, 3-year-old.

01:26:48 What's just like a thing you have learned about raising great kids? >> It's humbling. You know, um they will challenge you in ways you don't expect. Um they are like mini mirrors of you sometimes. So it's like that's like a it's a feedback mechanism. And it's like such a joy, honestly. Um and I'm very lucky to have an amazing wife and and partner who um at times, most times, takes the unfair, you know, load of it.

01:27:21 Um but um yeah, it's probably it's definitely my greatest joy. >> That's such a good summary. That's exactly how it feels. Very challenging at times, but the greatest joy. >> But just think about your career though. The thing when you look back on your career of your most enjoyable times, you were a little bit over your skis. You were thrown into something unexpected that you weren't ready for.

01:27:46 And you like figured it out. And in the moment it was a series of ups and downs, stacking S curves, but you'll look back and I'll be like, "Wow, that was like one of like my career highlights." But you were really over your skis. >> Uh Molly Graham, who's been on the podcast, and did a couple newsletter uh guest posts, she has this concept she calls the J curve, which is you your best roles are just you join and and you go way down and suck at it for a while, and then you come back up, and that's the best experience

01:28:13 you've ever had. >> Molly is Yeah, Molly has gold out there, for sure. >> She's so incredible. Working on a new guest post right now, might have come out by the time this comes out. >> Love it. >> Uh with that, two final questions, Adam. Uh what do you want to plug? Anything you want to point people to? And how can listeners be useful to you? >> I think they're one in the same.

01:28:29 I mean, I I uh I'll plug I mean, I would love people to try try Cursor. I think it's incredibly exciting things that we're coming out with. Um and we're really proud of it. Um some things in the pipeline, too. I'm not super out there online. I think I'm on LinkedIn a little bit, but um I really honestly try to like my let my work um and our team speak for what we do.

01:28:53 Um but I'm always down to be helpful, back to the last point. So, um I I really do get pure energy and joy from helping people. And so, I know at some point that will come back in some kind of way or form. Don't expect it to, but um that's just where I get that that drive from me. >> Just to plug Cursor a little bit. Uh not only is just the design and experience of Cursor awesome, the best feature for a lot of people is you could just switch between models extremely easily.

01:29:20 So, instead of getting hooked on Codex or Claude code, use Cursor, and then a new Opus comes out, and you GPT comes out, and you could switch and just play around with it immediately versus switching the product. >> Yeah, there was a world where models were coming out every three or four months. We're down to a number of days between models, and uh people I know who love to build products want to be working with the best tools at any given time.

01:29:41 And so, you know, our our agent um allows you to choose the right model. And I think for a lot of companies, also cost is a is a rightful consideration now. And so, it really comes around optimization of using the right model for the right task. And so, that's kind of just landing into uh Cursor's sweet spot. >> Yeah, and you guys are also now just building state-of-the-art models built sitting on SpaceX's data centers like a whole new world for cursor.

01:30:09 >> I mean getting to getting to train on the world's largest data center has just unlocked um our models. So, it's been it's been amazing. >> What a time to be alive. >> That's crazy. >> Adam, thank you so much for being here. >> Thanks for having me. >> Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

01:30:31 Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. [music] See you in the next episode.