I burned down my 7-figure business and still felt lost. Here's what nobody tells you about pivoting. Transcript, AI Summary & Key Points

00:00 My first business was a big multiple sevenf figureure business. I burned it down because of burnout. >> Vanessa Laauo built a multi-million dollar [music] content business and walked away from it. She recently announced that she was shutting everything down. >> She discontinued her creator supercharge mastermind, scaled down her sevenfigure business, retired boss gram academy >> to take an indefinite [music] satical.

00:23 All of her followers were like, "What happened to Vanessa?" I fully expected that right after I'd come back full swing, but instead I felt more lost than before. I was constantly shaming myself for the last 3 years being, I'm not growing enough. I'm not there yet. Why haven't I built a multi-million million dollar business yet? It's been 3 years. You know, I did it once.

00:44 I should be able to do it again. I was just putting constant pressure on myself. >> That sounds exhausting to carry the world that way. It's never okay at the next milestones. [music] That's why people at the top realize, hey, I'm still not happy. But a lot of times we go through the world going I have to define my own meaning. And I think that it's just such a burden for [music] the modern self.

01:04 Identity is something that I have to either invent for myself. Really identity is received. [music] You can't receive something if you're trying to grasp at things all the time. I think there's a lot of people who are carrying life in a very tiring, exhausting, and burdening way. >> And there is another way. >> There's another way to carry it. Before we begin, I know I usually don't post videos like this, but that's kind of the point because this YouTube channel recently hit a million subscribers.

01:30 And instead of doing your typical celebration video, I would much rather share something that's more honest with you, and that is a reflection on where I'm at in my journey so far. For the last few months, I've been working with a mentor behind the scenes. His name is Jason, and he's been an entrepreneur for many decades. And a topic that we often talk about is how I can hold a platform like this without losing myself in the process.

01:53 because not only has this happened to me before, but earlier this year I almost gave up on this YouTube channel. And so what you just saw was a teaser of the conversation that I'm about to share with you. We talk about burnout, identity, not enoughness, God, and so much more. And so if you are someone who is constantly chasing milestones, never feeling like you're enough, or you lack a sense of purpose in your work and in your life, then I think you'll really see yourself in this.

02:16 My intention is to simply share a conversation that I wish more creators and entrepreneurs had access to. So, let's get the conversation started. Starting with this very first question that Jason asked me. >> Where were you three months ago or four months ago when we first got together? I saw somebody kind of walk into the room and we were introduced by uh a mutual friend.

02:37 Kevin, >> so shout out to Kevin. Uh I saw uh a young woman who was overwhelmed by her gifts and capacities >> and uh in a place where your trajectory was up but as you carried that on your person it felt like you were just going into the bigger you got the more burden was going to come for you. Mhm. >> And the way you were able to hold all of that felt like you were uncertain as to how to move forward with life.

03:19 >> Yeah. >> And so that's kind of where you were. I have notes from our from our sessions that I could maybe, you know, >> Yeah. I mean, I think for me after burning down my business, my first business was like a big multiple sevenf figureure business and on paper it was really successful. Um, but I burned it down because of burnout. I fully expected that right after I'd come back like full swing, you know, completely renewed, but instead I felt more lost than before.

03:50 And when I shut down my first business, that was 3 years ago. And a part of me just carried a lot of shame and rumination because I feel like it's been three years. Like, how come I still feel like I don't have my mojo back? And how come I feel like everyone else who's burning down their businesses right now, like I did it 3 years ago, but now I see other people making huge pivots like I did, for some reason it just seems like they bounce back so much faster and they seem to have have it all figured out.

04:20 And here I am 3 years into it and still wondering like where am I going? And beyond that, because I had experienced so much growth in my first business, I was also afraid of growth at the same time because it costed me so much. And so I had started a new business with my husband. It's called Super Boba. You know this. >> Mhm. Um, and I almost felt lost with that too because I know that with this new company that I started that there that what it would require of me to have it thrive and have it grow.

05:06 And I was like, I'm not ready. I don't know if I'm ready for that yet. And then beyond that, because I was working with my husband, he took on like just sharing a business with someone else was very hard for me, too, because I'm so used to be being the one that's the driving force of everything. >> Mhm. >> And to have someone else be the driving force of everything and being the leader, I was like, what where does that leave lead me?

05:28 And so, I think when I met you, I was kind of in this juncture point where, okay, I want to grow, but I'm scared of growth. I have this other business where I don't know where my place is in. And then I have this YouTube channel, which doesn't really fully relate to the new business I started. >> Mhm. >> But I still like making videos, but I also don't like making videos.

05:54 And I don't know why I'm making videos. And so I was just feeling really confused with all these things happening. And I remember when I I met you, I told you I was like, I feel I feel washed. Like >> I think my I think my time is over. Like I don't know how to move forward from this because I know what's required to succeed. But all those things that led to my success in the first place burned me out so badly.

06:30 So how do I succeed? Like what is the is there another path for this? And so that's kind of where I was at when I first met you. >> Yeah, I remember our first that session that we were together was like it was more like six hours, but >> yeah, [laughter] it's a long one. >> And one of the things that I said that felt like it hit you as relief was this idea that you could have harmony in life.

06:53 >> Mhm. >> Uh and you could have your life integrated. And so you had >> uh I I said this to you, but you were like right on the verge of burnout. And whenever you would try to get back into like, okay, I'm just gonna muscle up and do the work and like get things done, you would feel like all the energy would just leave you. And you were really carrying that when we were together in that in that moment.

07:20 >> Um, and so you felt like, oh, I have this goal here and I have this goal here and they're pulling me in different directions and I don't know how to do that. I don't even know how to >> bring my life together. And uh and that's where we kind of started in saying, okay, well, I think that there's a way where you can actually pull all of these things and have a unity of your life in a way that is not going to crush you uh is not going to make you bitter to the audience that you have that you feel like you're going to

07:54 >> uh be able to share with them and not not do that. And that's going to lead you not into just burning out eventually. Like I had this picture from one of the first times that we saw each other where it's like just these little tiny pieces of your heart were going out but there was nothing that was coming back to replenishing you or the source of any of that was just not available to you.

08:15 >> Yeah. >> And yeah, that's what that's what I was really excited to start working >> Yeah. >> in the beginning. >> I agree. >> Do you remember those days? >> Yeah, I think you're right. Like what really stood out to me was the idea that I could do it all in harmony because when I met you, I was like, "Okay, I either have to choose Super Boba or I have to choose my YouTube channel."

08:39 And at the time, I was also thinking about starting a family. >> I don't know if you remember that. And I was like, "Oh my goodness." Like, I I need to figure out what my lane is before I start popping these kids because I am so scared to lose my identity again. Even though I haven't I I felt like at the time I I still hadn't found it and I was in a rush to find it.

09:04 I think that's kind of the heart of it where, you know, I tried the the hustle entrepreneur things, selling online courses and being this YouTuber and it burned me out and I didn't enjoy doing it. And then now I'm doing this tea business with my husband. Um, but at the same time, there's something still pulling me back to wanting to make videos, but how do these two relate?

09:27 >> Mhm. >> And then I've got the the the potential mom thing coming up. And so I almost felt like I was in a rush and hurry to figure it out. And I was just trying this and trying that. And even though I didn't feel like I was physically burnt out, I was mentally burnt out. >> Yeah. >> And I was also shaming myself because I would be ruminating in bed, like just literally in bed being like, "What do I need to work on today?

09:52 And how do I get to where I need to go?" And then months would pass and I hadn't done anything >> because I was just always in my head and so frozen with all the different options. And it wasn't until you introduced the concept of no like you can actually have everything exist in harmony. It's just you just need to approach how you approach life differently so you can carry it all.

10:17 That's kind of what you need to to really uh focus on and look into. And I think when we started working together, I kind of had my doubts in my mind of like, is that even possible um because I've never experienced coaching like how we have >> before in my years of having mentors and coaches. Like every coach that I've had would focus on one specific thing.

10:45 >> Um whereas our time together, it was really not what I expected, but everything that I needed. I >> I want to talk about identity because I felt like when you came and there's a lot of people that uh this seems to be just in the culture around us all over the place where identity is something that I have to either invent for myself. I have to figure out and invent myself >> uh or I have to like clutch at it.

11:14 I have to like grasp at it and uh really identity is received if uh and you can't receive something if you're trying to grasp at things all the time. It's not the posture of your heart to be able to do that. >> Mhm. >> And I think one of the hardest things for me in our relationship was actually slowing you down enough to be able to see see things. That was so hard though because when we met, I was doing these weekly yaps >> and you told me to just stop.

11:50 Like you told me you weren't you didn't force me to stop, you know, posting on my YouTube, but you encouraged me to take a break so that we could actually work on the foundations. And that was actually something that I didn't realize I needed because for me when I go through something in my life the immediate reaction is I need to post about it and I need to share it on the internet.

12:22 And it's kind of weird because it almost feels like the internet knows more about my problems than the people in my actual life. >> Mhm. And so whenever I posted those vulnerable yaps, I I would feel good because it was almost like a release for me because I didn't have an outlet to release too. And so making YouTube videos and talking about my problems in real time was my way of releasing.

12:45 But then afterwards, I would almost like have to retreat again because I would get so much feedback on the problems that I was still going through. And it kind of made me realize the the weekly yaps that I did, the vulnerable videos that I did, as much as I wanted to share and document the process of me healing, I was kind of speaking from open wounds rather than scars.

13:09 >> Mhm. >> And because I'm expressing myself through things that I haven't thought through yet, and I kind of did it impulsively. I'm like just sharing things. Um, whenever I got feedback, whether it was positive or negative, it would be very disregulating for me. And it was actually you that mentioned the word disregulating. You asked me, "Do you find it dregulating when you post these videos?"

13:28 And I'm like, "Yeah." Why is it that when I post something so vulnerable, if I get even just one negative comment or one perspective that like kind of stings, I'll just stop posting. Like, it'll just ruin my whole whole week. >> Yeah. And what's amazing about you is actually you have a gift of being able to be vulnerable publicly in the way that you are.

13:54 >> Mhm. Uh but it's the the being in the thing that you haven't sorted out yet being shared like in the moment of vulnerability is is what you were sharing as opposed to this was something that happened to me that was vulnerable and you having some distance between those things. So, uh, hope the people who love what you bring to the internet that I'm not trying to kill that like I'm actually trying to say >> because of Jason, I didn't post.

14:23 >> You're never going to be vulnerable again online. But cuz that's the gift of who you are is a lot of that. >> Yeah. >> Is being able to say, "Hey, this is the heart of the thing as I carry it in my heart." >> Uh, and I think a lot of people love that you do that >> and it makes you relatable. Like I think about your first video that you ever posted when you shared that with me of like I quit my job because this wasn't working for me.

14:45 Like that is vulnerable. >> Um but the idea of like hey this is the uh I'm triggered right now and I'm going to share it with you. >> Yeah. >> And just creating some distance of like oh how do I hold that properly? >> Yeah. I was speaking from a place of trigger, but also, and I didn't know this at the time until we started really hashing things out about like myself and how I see the world and all of that, um, is I didn't know myself, right?

15:15 >> So, whenever I post something that is very vulnerable, obviously, that's the most honest version of myself right now. And so if I receive feedback about it, I will automatically think, "Oh my goodness, like you think this about me. That must be true. >> That must be who I am." Um, and so I think that's why it would disregulate me so much is because I didn't have a strong enough sense of self to carry the weight of all of that feedback.

15:43 And with YouTube or making content, like it's so easy to hide behind a niche or to have a persona that you create for yourself. In in my case, for years, I was perceived as an expert social media teacher. So, if someone told me that they don't like my strategies or the strategy didn't work, like I wouldn't take it so personally. But with the more vulnerable videos where I'm actually sharing things that I'm truly going through, that's personal.

16:08 Mhm. >> But the problem is if you don't know who you are, and I didn't at the time, um I didn't have that confidence, it's really easy to get broken down by the feedback. Whereas, if I actually had a strong foundation and I know who I am and I know, you know, what my gifts are, what my weaknesses are or whatever it is, then those comments shouldn't affect me as much because I know who I am and I'm confident.

16:36 I think what you a word that you mentioned is self assuredness. >> Mhm. >> And so that was ultimately what made me want to explore more of that identity piece. >> Yeah. >> Because that was something that I was still lacking. And even with let's say starting Super Boba like >> for me prior to that I was so used to being like when I had my own business I was just a solo founder.

17:03 I was so used to being the one that called the shots, being the one that drove the growth of everything. It relied on my face it to succeed. And then once I started sharing a business with someone, I was like, well, what role do I play now? Who am I without being the leader and the the strategist and and all these things? And so that was something I hadn't figured out yet.

17:31 >> Yeah. when I was doing those >> one one of the first things that we talked about as a framework is relationship identity mission >> in that order or rim you know you I know you and I have talked about it but I think it's helpful to explain how you've started to hold life differently because so many of us go out >> and uh we we go looking for a mission and something to do some way to live ourselves out into the world Right?

17:58 And when the order is that we're trying to live out a mission, you know, try to live ourselves out in the world in order to find out who we are, our identity, in order to be loved and in relationship with people that all of a sudden you're handing all this power over to what you do and people start to think, I am what I do. >> But that's not actually true.

18:24 And that's a very difficult way to hold life. Yet so many of us uh do it and uh just being human we're vulnerable to that as a like a condition. Mhm. >> But if I actually got what I needed in relationship and relationship bestows identity onto me says Vanessa this is how I see you this is who I see you to be right >> then I go okay that's my identity if from the relationships that are around me and you know it can be from uh God too like in that a transcendent relationship I'm not sure where all your people are in that

19:04 as well but that's Okay. And then if I receive my identity and say this is who I am, now the question becomes how do I get to live that out in the world and that it's uh relationship bestows identity and outflow of identity is my my mission and my purpose. >> Yeah. >> But when I'm trying to go I don't know who I am. I have no self assuredness. I'm trying to ask the world in your case through a YouTube video.

19:32 Hey, who am I? >> And then when the comments come back for people, they're like, >> "Hey, you're this and you're that." And some of them are great and some of them are not great. And then you're like, "I don't know who I am." And that can be such a uh such a floundering feeling for for somebody, you know. And I think what I've seen in you over our time together over the last several months is like >> it's it's become more concrete as to like, oh, who am I?

20:06 How am I made? And then how can I bring that to people? Uh not just to run a business. The other thing that we've been talking about is uh your identity is actually how you were made to love the world. >> Mhm. >> Right. We've talked about love a lot. >> Yeah. >> And I don't mean like uh a romanticized version of love or like I love ice cream kind of love.

20:33 I'm talking about an actual self- gift of this is who I am and this is what I have to offer the world so that they can benefit. Mhm. >> And a lot of that has just been you've taken that in, you've internalized that and you've been able to offer yourself uh in a way that you really want to bless and give to people. >> Yeah. >> So I don't know. >> Yeah.

20:57 I think when you shared the concept of rim, like relationship, identity, mission, it was refreshing and scary for me. but refreshing because before I had seen it the opposite where I'm like what's my mission what's my purpose I would even use chat GPT AI to be like okay like what is my purpose what is my tagline like what is my I help like who am I helping and you know what's the purpose of my channel and then I would try to reverse engineer that >> which is okay this is through AI or through whatever like this is my

21:35 this is who I am this is what I what my platform is made for okay so therefore this is going to be how I act these are going to be the habits that I adopt dayto-day and [snorts] then these are going to be the people that I attract and so I kind of had it opposite um whereas for you when you flipped it on its head and you mentioned exactly what you said where no actually you need to be in relationship with other people and that will tell you what your identity is and how God made you and then from there you'll naturally

22:05 know what your purpose and your mission is. Um, that was refreshing, but it was also scary because I had almost like residual trauma from growing a big online platform >> where I was like, I don't want to be in relationship with anybody. Like, when I came back from my burnout, from my sabbatical, I didn't want to go to events. I didn't want to go to any coffee shop dates.

22:31 I didn't want to meet strangers anymore. I just didn't want to put myself out there anymore. And I think because I associated that with transactional relationships, which is why I was so hesitant to even meet you. Like the first thought that I had when Kevin said, "Hey, you should meet Jason. He's a great guy. I think you guys would hit it off." Wasn't, "Wow, okay, I trust Kevin and I know that me and Jason, like he brought me and Jason together for a reason, and there's probably so much I could learn."

23:00 It was immediately, "What does this guy want?" >> Mhm. >> He probably wants me to, you know, help him with his YouTube channel. That was how I saw relationships before was give and take because of my experience of being in business. And I felt like those types of relationships was what burnt me out in the first place and activated my people pleasing.

23:21 >> Mhm. >> Activated my need to perform and to say yes to things that I actually don't want to say yes to. >> Yeah. Um and then beyond that, one thing that I did learn from the concept of rim which is being in relationship which would then lead to your identity and then your mission is I also feel like I was getting feedback from the wrong places. I was getting I was entering relationship with people that don't actually know me in real life.

23:54 >> Mhm. And to your point, those yaps and were basically cries for who am I, guys? Like, you know, this is what I'm going through. These are the problems I'm struggling with. What do you guys think? And what do you like, what's your opinion on me? But the truth is is that no one on the internet will actually truly know who I am. But the people who know who I am are my mom, my dad, you know, people that I actually get very vulnerable with, um, like my church group or even my friends who I've known for decades.

24:25 These are the people who actually know >> me in full. But at the same time, I had this reflection moment where actually, why am I sharing all of these intimate things with people on the internet? I haven't even shared this with with my mom or with my best friend. Like, my best friend's just learning about these things through my YouTube >> as a whole bunch of internet strangers or >> Yeah.

24:47 It was almost like I was prioritizing internet strangers over my actual relationships. And so when you told me to take a pause, >> take a beat, and to maybe not document everything that I'm feeling every single week, and to instead take a step back and actually be in relation with my friends, with my family, that's when I actually felt change in myself.

25:13 And we can talk all like all about how, you know, that worked out, but that's what Rim taught me. Mhm. >> Um was that I was actually approaching it in a very opposite way and even if I was looking for relationships, it was in the wrong people. >> Yeah. >> Can we break down just a few theory things in that too just to expand it for people who you and I know what REM is and we talked a lot about it, but uh >> we literally grow up not knowing who we are except in the face of others.

25:46 Like when you're a little baby, like you borrow your mother's preffrontal cortex to know who you are. >> What do you mean by that? >> Your brain is not developed enough as a little kid to even understand how you should feel about yourself. >> And so it's actually through the communication that happens eye to like in eye contact as a little kid. So when you were just like this little bit, you know, this big, uh, when you looked into your mom's eyes and saw through her face, you understood how to feel about yourself, >>

26:20 right? So you're crying, you're disregulated. You look in your mom and her nervous system is the one, you know, brain and, you know, all of the your affect, you know, like how you're regulated and things like that. That's what's telling you through the face of your mom and your dad is what's telling you how to feel. >> Who you are, how to feel. And um and in healthy parenting uh the look we know who we are the way our parents look at us, right?

26:52 When you're like, "Hey, I want to go do this thing." and you see in your parents eyes whether they believe in you or not or you know like that that is so you uh some of us didn't get parts of that some of us didn't get any of that some you know all that kind of stuff but that's >> the way we were designed to relate as it as it is in like the eyes in the face of another so when >> when you're putting it out to the internet to say hey I need this thing can you give it to me it's it's not the way it was like intended

27:26 versus the people who have >> walked alongside you, your parents, your small group, like all that kind of stuff. Those are the eyes and the faces that we need to tell us who we are so that we can then go out into the world and you know venture like to adventure into the world >> as ourselves. Um and in individuals like yourself like you come with just so much capacity to go into the world, you know, and to like uh start big things and like accelerate those things and like put them out there like that can get very uh

28:01 flipped upside down very quickly. >> I think it's actually unfortunate. I don't think this is a um this is just part of what it means to be in the culture right now. like 200 years ago, 100 years ago, maybe even 50 years ago, people didn't have audiences like you're able to have right now. And uh we're still immature as a society as to how to carry that well.

28:35 >> Uh and so that's part of what you've learned over the last 3 months is like to how to hold that in a way that's >> Yeah. >> that's better and more peaceful. >> Yeah. Because otherwise you're just in this game that just keeps going and going and going where you're like, "Okay, maybe relief is around the next corner. Maybe when I grow from this milestone to the next milestone, then then it'll be okay.

28:57 Then I'll feel okay." >> Mhm. >> And you're somebody who's gone through many milestones and it's never okay at the next milestones. That's why people at the top realize, hey, I'm still not happy. >> Yeah. I also think, you know, when I met you, I was also I want to say scared of my own audience or resentful >> um in a sense where I felt like, okay, I'm giving all this value online and this is how I was thinking before.

29:32 I'm giving all this value online and people still want more. >> Mhm. >> Or maybe I don't post and someone be like, where are you? like, you know, almost to me it felt like a demand of like needing me to to perform and to be a dancing monkey. And um I had that relationship with my audience or at the time and it kind of made me wonder like why am I doing YouTube?

29:58 like why am I like why am I putting myself out there only to feel like it's never enough? >> And I think that was something that I really struggled with was the not enoughness piece. Um, and so maybe we can talk about that because that's like a big part of our conversation >> um that we have every single week the last 3 months was >> me never feeling like I'm ever enough.

30:34 >> Yeah. >> And it's funny because even when you reflect back to me, oh, you have high capacity, you're able to build big things, like my first reaction is like, what? Like really? I don't Are you sure? cuz I remember when we first met and like you know our time together we were still getting to know each other and you're like you're this and you're this and you're that and you were saying nice things and I was like I don't believe you.

30:56 That's not how I feel about myself at all. And so I wonder what your perspective is on that. >> Yeah. Well, and just for clarity, like when when you say there was like a resentment growing or whatever with your audience, it wasn't because you were ungrateful that you had an audience or all those things. I want to make sure that people don't misunderstand you in that.

31:21 >> Yeah. >> Uh it was that the nature of the relationship that you had with your audience was, >> hey, if I offer you value, then you guys give me something back. M >> and then when you're like, "Oh, I feel like I'm burning out and I'm draining on the one hand, they're still wanting something from you." That's how you are carrying it. It's not necessarily how your audience is carrying it, right?

31:48 >> And that became clear, but it's like this tension of like what's the relationship that you have with the people that follow you, right? like like um and one of the one of the things that we were working on is like what if it's these are just people that you get to love and you get to share with them as opposed to hey uh we'll we'll put a a lot of the a lot of times the way the contractual relationship with an audience goes is you guys are willing to give me money and then I will fulfill that money with myself, right?

32:29 And it's particularly tricky with people who have a personal brand element uh with what they're doing, right? Because then it's not >> the product that I'm offering you, it's me that I'm offering you in some way. And that becomes very tricky. >> Yeah. >> But what flips the whole way we carry life is to say, why don't I love the world in the way that I'm supposed to?

32:54 And then people can return that love by honoring with support in whatever way that might be. Sometimes that's monetarily. Sometimes that's paying for the value that you're putting out. Um sometimes that's just with the attention that they that they give in a video or what that whatever that might be. And in that way, the exchange is not a I'm using you so that I can get what I need and we're just both comfortable with playing that game, which happens all over the place.

33:26 in the world that we live in. >> But instead, we flip the script and we say, "I'm going to love you well, >> and I will trust that the honor and whatever form, if that's money or if that's attention or whatever, will come back." >> Yeah. >> And sometimes it's not going to come back in the way that we expected. But then I can say, I'm free to love. >> Yeah.

33:47 >> I'm free to love. I'm I can really give value in a way that I think is going to give value. I can really give um uh uh advice. I can teach well. I can make things easy to digest for people. Which is I think when I see you as having high capacity and uh giftedness, it's that you're showing up in a way where you're like, uh I haven't watched a lot of your videos.

34:14 Uh but one of the ones I started watching uh just to get more of a sense of like who you are, it was like a a descript video [laughter] teaching >> and it's uh you have a beautiful gift to be able to teach in a way that um uh brings uh it's actually a beautiful way to teach in that you simplify things. you can explain them in a way that people can take them in quite easily.

34:44 Uh you reflect your own experience of the thing with that. And high capacity doesn't mean that you can just like um that you have high output. That's not what I'm saying. It's just that hey, you can run a YouTube channel that has a million people subscribing to it, right? >> Yeah. >> Uh I can't hand that to my 9-year-old daughter, right? like she doesn't have that kind of capacity.

35:13 >> Yeah. >> Uh in in this moment, >> mainly because she's nine, you know, um >> um or any of my any of my kids. But you have the capacity to share ideas with lots of people. >> That's cap that's capacity. Mhm. >> Um, and you have the ability to do that in a way that is generative like it it people like it, you know, or they wouldn't subscribe or they wouldn't follow you or they wouldn't do all those things.

35:43 So, >> when when I say your high high capacity, those are the things that I'm meaning. >> Yeah. I think um there's one thing that you said that I want to go back on because it impacted me a lot during our coaching time together was when you talk about love and to be honest when you first mentioned that you know in our first or first two sessions or whatever and you were like you know you just got to love like that's not how you said it but we talked about love a lot and I think for me at the time I was like that's so

36:15 cheesy like and maybe because I came from an Asian household where like we don't really show love a lot. I was like like this sounds kind of lame like you know and just such a weird word for me >> to use in a like not going to lie when I started working with you I was like okay this guy's going to help me with my with my business. He's going to help me with my whatever.

36:39 And it ended up being very life centered very relationship centered which I wasn't expecting but it was actually what I needed. And so when you talk about love in a what I think is a business context, I was like that's so weird, like kind of cheesy, like kind of lame. M >> um but then it wasn't until you mentioned how love is the most important currency and you asked, you know, if you could choose between a billion dollars, but you would never experience love again and no one would ever love you again, you could not

37:14 love again, would you choose the billion dollars? And for most people, they would say no. >> They would say no to the billions. And so it wasn't until you kind of broke that down for me where I realized like wo like love is actually the most important thing. And I think even you mentioned like what if businesses actually used love as a metric and like as a currency rather than how much money can we extract from people?

37:42 How much you know transactions and orders can we get from people? How can we optimize for conversion? like if you just focused on the love part, a lot of that would come because people feel love from you. They feel valued. And so it wasn't really until you broke it down that way where I realized love is more important than money. And you know, to your point, you could love someone.

38:03 You could love like pour love into your work. And yeah, maybe the money may not come, but at least you know where your intentions were. And I think that was what I hadn't cracked the code on yet when we first started working together because I don't even think I loved myself to be honest. >> And I think so much of our work was about that was how can I get to a place where I love myself and there were a series of weird tests and experiments that you made me do that I was very uncomfortable with doing.

38:37 >> Yeah. Do you want to talk about them? Yeah, I'll talk about them because I was so uncomfortable. Oh my gosh. So, Jason basically made me What did you make me do? It was so It was like whenever you want to say something to someone like you want you you see something good in them or you see something that you admire about them, um you see some beauty or whatever, like tell them right away and tell them how like just tell them.

39:07 text it to them, say it to them, whatever. Like just affirm people. And I was like, like I feel like it's easy that's easy for me to do with strangers on the internet. >> Like I could easily go see someone's post, like maybe an acquaintance or something, be like, "Oh my gosh, you're amazing. I love your work. Like, keep on going. You're awesome." But you specifically told me to do it with people in my life, like my friends that I've known for 15 years, my mom, my dad.

39:34 like and to me that was so uncomfortable but it also made me realize that I don't do that to the people around me and I don't know if because it's an Asian thing where we don't express like we don't ex like we don't verbally express things like we usually do like you know here's food I made you something or like let's just make fun of each other and like spend time together kind of thing but to actually have to tell my friend like, "Hey, I just want to say that I think you're so beautiful and here are some amazing

40:10 qualities that I've noticed about you and here's how you make me feel." That was a challenge for me, >> but you told me to do it. And I think for weeks I didn't do it. And you were like, "Did you do it yet? Did you do it yet? Did you do it yet?" I'M LIKE, "NO, NOT YET. >> My almost I thought about it. I thought about it, but I didn't do it. Um, but I did it.

40:35 And I slowly started to be more observant, first of all, of the positive qualities that people in my life have. And then I started to actually it started with maybe a text like hey you know this is what I noticed and I just want to say like I love you and I just want to say how much I appreciate you and I just want to say that you last week when you did this is what I noticed.

41:03 And then after it started being voice notes of me being like, "Hey, just thinking of you and you know, I just want to say, you know, that you're amazing and I hope you have a great day and yesterday when you helped me with this or in a conversation, I noticed you said this and I just want to make sure you know that, you know, you're so whatever whatever I noticed."

41:28 But the crazy thing is is once I started doing that with the people in my life, I started to actually feel so good about myself. And I started to not question my intention when I go out in the world because I think what that validated to me was like I'm a good person or my intentions are pure like I'm just loving on my friends on my family and if someone on the internet says otherwise that I'm a a shitty person or that I have bad intentions or that I'm a scammer or that all these things like I know from the proof in my

42:09 personal relationships that that is not true. And so that's what that exercise helped me with. But I don't know if you have other thoughts of what you've observed. >> Yeah. Well, one of the first things that I saw was uh a difficult way to hold the world is and this is all around us. If you think of um how how many camps or tribes there are that are at war with each other like leftwing, right-wing, conservative, liberal, like all that kind of stuff.

42:45 Like the heart of all the reasons we can't relate to somebody else is judgment. >> We pass judgment on each other uh as human beings and it's really bad in the in the place that we find ourselves right now. you're either like me or you're against me is kind of that. And so there's judgment on the side. Uh and the way uh we can't enter into that without judging ourselves.

43:16 >> Yeah. >> Or others. Right. And so one of the immediate things where I said, "Oh, there's a there's a place in you that's underdeveloped um inside of you that can offer encouragement in order to see the good in the other person." And I I hope for this for like everyone listening that they could just enter into this one thing is to suspend judgment.

43:42 And that's not saying that we don't get to um have claims of what's right and wrong. Like that's okay. >> But uh there's judgment on the one side and then there's tolerance on the other where we just say okay no matter what you do everything is fine. Right? But in the middle of that is this idea of mercy. Right? And so how do we enter into mercy is for you it was encouragement because judgment um uh was where your heart was sensitive through all the conversations that we had was the idea of critique >> right like and

44:21 so critique is a form of judgment >> and uh because that had been placed on you through you know different parts of your story and the fact that your uh the the life that you have has a lot of eyeballs on it. You know, it's maybe another way like being you could be very sensitive to critique. >> And so as soon as there's a comment that you know has anything near critique, >> if you're in the space, it's like the air you breathe.

44:51 It's just everything. If I live in judgment and critique, then I, you know, judge and critique others. And it just it's a vicious cycle. And so getting you out of that cycle was saying, "Hey, there's an encourager in you that as soon as you activate that, it'll quickly make you see the world differently and it'll make you accept things differently." Um, and so that's what I wanted from you is to uh to find freedom from self- judgment.

45:26 Because all that we've been doing together from the beginning is like and I know you're like okay love is cheesy and all that kind of stuff but if you think of we're in relationship with ourselves we're in relationship with others we're in relationship with the world in general and we're in relationship with a transcendent you know the the powers of be that are beyond us right um and so then the question of how do I choose to relate to myself to others to the world and to the transcendent become really important

45:59 because that's how I go through life. >> And one of the ways you were relating to yourself was you were judging yourself. >> Yeah. >> And I was like, "Oh, the way that you break free from that is actually to encourage others cuz then the part of you that is strong at the critique part for yourself, >> yeah, >> can actually find freedom and rest." >> I agree with that.

46:23 cuz then you can encourage yourself and you can see oh I am good I am made good >> so >> I agree I think it yeah I didn't expect like when you said you told me like this is the intention but of this exercise I was like I don't understand how that would work but it worked because I spent more time looking for the good in other people >> and as a result I saw the good within myself >> and because I saw the good within myself.

46:53 I became just more I don't know. I think it just it just kind of reduced my anxiety about a bit because sometimes I'll walk into the rooms and I'll ask myself, do will people like me? Um what are people thinking of me? >> I I want you to tell the story about when you went and >> you made a trip. You made a trip and you were with people and how you just were able to enter into that.

47:21 >> Yeah. I went on a >> on a trip recently and um it was actually my first time meeting up with people that I had been in the industry with like in my previous business and I was a bit nervous going back into those spaces because after my sabbatical um or during my satical and after I kind of just kept to myself a lot just hung out with the friends that I know didn't really go to events events or you know network.

47:52 And so this was kind of my first catchup with some old friends from a previous industry that I had been in. And I had anxiety because sometimes when I go to these things where it's people that I know but I'm not that close with, we have like an online relationship, I sometimes feel like I have to measure up in the same way. like I feel like, oh, this person is making half a million dollars a month and so I got to make sure I have an update that's just as impressive or I need to make sure I also share my accolades and I

48:27 also share all the cool things that I've been doing. And so I went on this trip and I met up with a group of women who were all very very successful, ambitious in their own right. One had just sold their company, one had just gotten, you know, an seven figure book deal. while the other is launching another startup. And usually the old me would have gone there and been like, first of all, why am I in this room?

48:53 Or, oh my gosh, I should probably work harder and I should probably earn my way to the same level of, you know, success that they have. Um, and the old me would have been like, oh yeah, like here's what I'm doing with Super Bowl and here's how many orders we've made and here's how much we've grown and like wanting to just prove >> Mhm. myself at the table and show that I deserve to be there.

49:18 >> But this time around it was different. like I listened and I asked questions and I got curious and I was genuinely genuinely happy for these women and at the same time I didn't feel the need to want to peacock and share and brag about all the things that I've done because and not to say that they were doing it on purpose, of course not, but I just didn't feel like I needed to do that.

49:47 M >> I don't know if I'm making any sense here. And so I left feeling like, huh, I approached that very differently than I would have years ago because I would have gone into it wanting to perform and talk about business all day and talk about my career and talk about all these things. But instead, I kind of actually left those conversations feeling like, "Oh man, I wish I got to know them a little bit better."

50:15 And so afterwards, I connected with each of them individually. I was like, "Hey, like you want to just go for a one-on-one cuz I I just want to I just want to know you better." And the old me would have never done that. The old me would have only saw business opportunity or not business opportunity. But the new me is like, I just want to get to know you better and let's [clears throat] not we don't even have to talk about business.

50:41 How are you doing? And so yeah, that was very different. And I remember telling you about that. And I actually remember right after uh leaving that co coffee chat telling Leon, I was like, I'm different. Like >> that was very different for me. >> Can you describe the difference? >> I was calm. I was calm. I feel like when I enter spaces like this, I I leave feeling not enough and I leave feeling like I got to do more.

51:17 And I think that's what burned me out in the first place with my first business was I started networking and I started going to masterminds and meeting people that on paper were technically more successful than me and feeling like oh my gosh there's a gap that I need to fill. So let me go home and implement whatever I learned so that I could be at the same level.

51:43 And we kind of talked about money in our conver in our conversations where I kind of use money as a measuring stick of whether someone is higher status than me. >> Mhm. >> And that's so weird to say that there's statuses among people, but that was my that was how I was holding the world when I first met you was how much money do they have? And if they have more than me, they must be smarter than me.

52:06 They must be happier than me. They must be better than me. And so this time around I went home and you know I just was like cool I met some cool girls and that's it. Like I I didn't have to carry it with me. It just made me reflect back on the growth that I experienced even though I was constantly shaming myself for the last 3 years being like I'm not growing enough like I'm not there yet.

52:36 Why haven't I built like why haven't I uh built a multi-million million dollar business yet? It's been three years. You know, I did it once. I should be able to do it again. Like I was just putting constant pressure on myself that I no longer feel as much. >> That sounds exhausting to carry the world that way. And I'm glad you don't carry it that way anymore.

53:02 >> Yeah. I think looking back like I didn't even realize >> that there was a different way >> I think >> to carry the world. >> I think most people don't and I think that's like uh it's this game that we all have agreed to play on some level where uh we just want to climb this ladder, you know, to get to the top, but we don't even realize we're we're trying to climb something to get there.

53:28 And then we're like, what if instead of ladders, there were just bridges where we could just, you know, instead of going, hey, are you as high up on the ladder as me? Cuz then we can like be in relationship, but instead just extend a bridge to people and say, hey, I'm human, you're human, and we're all broken in one way or another. And why don't we find our our connection point in the fact that we're all broken?

53:58 >> Yeah. And then the way I'm made to love, I'll love you. And the way you're love made to love, you'll love me. >> And that be the bond between us versus what can I get from you and what can you get from me? And that's, you know, that that's the conversation. Because if that's a conversation, it ends up being fairly surface. And and I'm not saying I'm anti- business or anything along those lines.

54:20 That's not the case at all. It's more uh I would rather uh be in business with people that I'm in relationship with at the heart level so that it's who I'm made to be and who they're made to be and that's a win that we get to do because then it doesn't end up being like we're competing with each other. Then it gets to be like, "Oh man, I get to bless you and you get to bless me."

54:48 And if we all did that, the world would be so much better. business would be better and I'm convinced that there'd be even more money >> in the in the system even in that. >> Yeah. >> Because we wouldn't focus on it. >> Yeah. I think also just like approaching relationships with the idea of to your point love. Um has really changed me too because again like it's like the mask falls off and sometimes it's exhausting to always be looking up or looking down.

55:19 like it's just nice to just >> look at someone straight on. >> Um because even before if I felt like someone was I feel like I would get intimidated by people easily. If I felt like they were uh really pretty or really successful or really rich and let's say they text me, you know, just a simple text. It would take me many business days to get back because I'm thinking what is the perfect text that I need to send or like how can I say this in the right way?

55:54 So I look like will they judge me if I like >> like the way that I text my personal friends is so different from the way that I would text someone that I perceive is like oh my gosh like I want to impress them or like oh my gosh I feel like in some way they are more >> they are better than me in in some sense and even texting someone would be exhausting for me.

56:14 >> Mhm. because you're like how am I what should I say in order how do they see the world? >> Yes. >> In order for me to write the perfect thing so that they don't feel all these things or I don't do the wrong thing and you second guess it and you overthink it and all that kind of stuff. >> Yeah. or like if if I send this will it sound stupid like and it's no wonder why I burned out and it's no wonder why I just get so like it to your point it's just an exhausting way to live.

56:45 >> Mhm. >> Like you can't create freely from a place like that. You can't you can't um you can't tap into like your heart when you carry life like that. And I think that was what I really really struggled with was I was just always always in my head thinking about what are other people thinking of me. >> Mhm. >> And it's not even and then you amplify that with having an online platform.

57:15 And so if you don't know how to characterize the like if if that's how you see your life like that, like it's no wonder you burn out. It's no wonder you resent being a creator or being someone that's online. >> Yeah. And I know like for me and this is why I wanted to have this conversation with you and why I wanted to publish it on my channel so that other people can experience what I've gone through is because I actually don't think I'm alone in this.

57:42 >> So >> yeah, I think there's a lot of people who are carrying life in a very tiring, exhausting and burdening way >> and there is another way. >> There's another way to carry it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think also there was one thing that you taught me um that really stuck with me and I would love for you to explain it because I'm going to butcher it.

58:02 Um but it's something about the words you said were fractal and like >> how God made each of us >> differently and unique and that we all have gifts. And I remember that impacting me so much because I actually didn't know what my gifts were. >> And it wasn't until through receiving feedback, through, you know, being in community, through affirming other people, through all the different things that I've done in the past few months where I'm getting closer to understanding this is how God made me and I should fully go

58:43 full send with the gifts that I have been given. And I think for me having that conviction of like this is actually what I'm really good at >> and how I'm designed to like pour into other people. It's given me more self- assuredness of how I'm moving in the world, like rather than feeling like, oh, I need to be like that person or I need to be like this person or I'm lacking in these areas.

59:22 And so, I'd love for you to explain that concept a little bit more because I'm I'm clearly struggling. >> Um, >> yeah. >> Yeah. Uh, [laughter] you've seen me do this a lot, but if I think of this pen, right, was this pen an idea first or was it a pen first? And it's >> an idea first. >> It's obvious that it was an idea. Somebody thought about this pen and somebody thought about the purpose of this pen, too.

59:47 It's like it's made to write and maybe be a stylus or whatever with this end. And but it all those things were the idea that it was before it became into being. And when I think of you, uh, I believe that you were also an idea at first. And I know this is going to, you know, expose my worldview a little bit to your audience. I'm okay with that, too.

01:00:14 >> Uh, I think in the mind of God, you were an idea. You were a good idea first. you were an idea that he had in um that he had for for the world in you as a gift. And so I believe that you were made from love like and that God being infinite and God being love, he can express himself in you in his image and likeness uh as a unique and unre repeatable gift to the world.

01:00:47 So he's actually saying he's revealing a part of who he is through you. >> And the idea of fractal is this idea that God can like arrange different gifts and personalities and all that kind of stuff in unique and unre repeatable ways to express a part of him. So >> I remember I asked you what does fractal even mean? And I think you use the kaleidoscope.

01:01:12 >> Yeah. because it's got infinite per uh permutations of like how God can express himself, right? Like a snowflake is made out of water. It's made out of the same substance, but every snowflake is unique. >> And I'm not saying you're a snowflake or whatever, whatever that means. But uh but the idea is that I I love to go through life meeting people and going, "Wow, what was the good idea that God had in mind for Vanessa?"

01:01:40 >> Mhm. And how was Vanessa made to express God who is love to the world? And uh this pen is not trying to say it's a hammer and it's not trying to convince the world or having to even figure out what it is. Mostly because it's an inanimate object. But a lot of times we go through the world going I have to define my own meaning. M >> and I think that it's just such a burden for the modern self >> right I have to define my own meaning >> versus saying >> if I was already an idea then the journey is about discovering the

01:02:19 good idea that I am and the good idea part of the way to discover that is figuring out how was I made to love the world right and so what we did together uh I have some of the things that talk about >> you have a whole notebook about me. [laughter] >> Yeah. Uh is like the good idea that you are is you're an encourager and you're generous and you're a leader like you have led people in directions and I'm sure that your your audience would agree with me.

01:02:58 Uh you're also a a kind motivator, >> right? where it's like you're wanting to life max in some ways and you're like, "Hey, I want people to come with me in that." >> Yeah. >> Um I also see like charisma. I see generosity. Uh I also see this this element of uh this will be technical but transcendental. You we talked about this but I'll break that down.

01:03:28 A transcendental is things that show us the transcendent which is if you think about is like that's just basically God right it's the uh the life that I live isn't I'm not generating that I'm actually learning to uh see that life is bigger than me and that's the transcendent you know like what force is bigger than me is >> and a lot of the ways that I feel like people encounter you as God's good idea is through this idea of beauty and how you teach and how you present yourself and how you do all of those things and uh

01:04:08 when we are being fully ourselves uh people get to encounter God you know and uh a God who is love is what I believe >> and that's the gift of each and every person who's listening to this that's the gift, right? >> And life is more a journey of discovering that than it is about getting the billion dollars or getting the bazillion followers. It's not about influence or money or power.

01:04:46 >> Yeah. >> It's a it's it's about learning how to give your life away in a way that is the most fulfilling and meaningful thing that you could ever do. M >> and that's a lifelong journey. But when we step onto that path, >> yeah, >> all of a sudden it feels like life becomes profound again. Um or maybe even profound for the first time where people are they're moved.

01:05:11 They're they feel deep within them. Uh that there is something good about life even though there's suffering and sacrifice and all those things. Um they're not to be avoided. They're actually been we learn to hold those in a way that makes sense. >> Yeah. I think I remember when we talked about this about the fact that um God has made each of us a certain way and how you know the goal in life is to just understand that like how did God design me?

01:05:50 um how did God make like how do I love you know to to our point uh I remember when we talked about that I felt a sense of relief >> and the reason why I felt a sense of relief was because I feel like I'm always searching like like searching for something that I feel doesn't exist in me like I have to manufacture it I have to go out there and create it and build it and you know really just look for it.

01:06:24 But when you mentioned that all of us were made in the likeness and image of God and through the love of God, it kind of made me feel like I'm taken care of like like the operating system is already within me. Everything that I I I I need to succeed or to be happy or filled like it's already in me. Maybe there's some cobwebs on it and maybe I need to dust it off or maybe I need to like, you know, clean it a little bit or dig a little bit to find it, but it's already in me.

01:06:56 And I think that just brought me so much relief in knowing that I have everything I need to succeed because I'm already successful. And I think that was something that we talked a lot about um in our time together because I again just never felt like I had that enoughness and I was always just searching without realizing that oh actually everything I need is is already here.

01:07:24 I just need to spend a little bit more time >> maybe >> getting like having that get brought up and revealed to me. I think it's more of like it's coming to me. It's revealing to it's going to get revealed to me rather than me like grinding and searching for it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that's the only place we can find our enoughness. Yeah. Like, oh, I don't actually have to be anyone somebody different.

01:07:52 >> Yeah. >> Than myself. And that doesn't mean that um what I'm saying is that somebody might say, well, there's some people who are just terrible people. That is that is true. >> Yeah. And so the journey becomes about having character because character is how we express who we are to the world, >> right? Like I can have bad character and that I can be a liar.

01:08:15 I can lie to people all the time and I can manipulate or I can tell the truth all the time >> and I can encourage and I can do all those. So the journey of being ourselves is not do I have enough or do I not have enough? Am I enough? it becomes how do I express who I am in a way that is the most uh character rich and that's also a a journey right >> um and then you think one of the most beautiful thing things of human beings is that we can grow you know I can read a book on how to you know help you uh that will expand

01:08:58 who I am Mhm. >> And so we grow our capacity in that way. We grow over time and in all of those things. And I think that's also a gift for people is that it's like we can change. We can shape our character. We can return to good character. So why do you think like because what you're saying is you know uh I guess my question is to return to good character that character is that something that like let's say God has already instilled in you like to your point like you could be a bad person bad person.

01:09:43 How do you become a bad person >> if God made all of us? I guess that's my question. >> Oh, that's a good um and I I'm not a psychologist, so I want to leave all the like personality disorders out out of that picture and just talk about it in the ordinary. So, I'm not talking about like >> Yeah, this is just by feeding my own personal curiosity. I'm not talking about psychopaths or all those kinds of things like you know uh I'm not qualified to fully articulate this in that realm but >> uh I think we were made good >>

01:10:16 okay with a propensity for good to be good I uh but there's a part of us that uh through fear and um a whole bunch of things where we miss the mark that we choose ourselves over others. Like whenever I'm trying to express my goodness, if I get hurt in that, uh then I'll retract, right? And then I'll be like I have to protect myself over someone else.

01:10:48 >> Um and so there's like wounding. There's also just I don't know why I always choose not to love. There's just something about being human where that feels like uh there's something within me that sometimes doesn't choose to express who I am in the best way. >> I I'm selfish. Um uh I don't always have the capacity not to get angry as an example. Everyone can everyone has their own kind of set of things.

01:11:22 But some people choose not to fight that. And some people because they're wounded so badly. >> Yeah. >> Just can't see the world as safe and they have to like bring everything within them and there's no capacity for a relationship. There's no ability to trust anyone else. And so >> I see myself in that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In the second one. >> Yeah.

01:11:46 Well, not right now. I feel like >> a Care Bear right now, but >> I can understand that. >> Yeah, I can understand it too where it's like, hey, if if I feel like uh financial security feels like the place where I'm not going to get taken care of, where my needs aren't going to get met, >> then I might be prone to manipulate, >> right? I might use you for financial gain, right?

01:12:12 >> Yeah. And it's in that um we're we lack clarity inside. If you can imagine like a glass of water is like is it muddy or is it clear? >> Yeah. >> Right. And it's like every time we choose selfishness, it's like adding a little bit of dirt to the mix. >> And we all have that, you know, we all have uh parts of our story where we were hurt, where we were wounded.

01:12:39 And those wounds are going to often uh prevent us from being who we're supposed to be >> because the gift and the wound are always they're not on opposite ends of the spectrum. They're right there on top of each other. Uh so if you have a gift of generosity, you know, and free giving, which I know you do, then part of your story is when you were generous or when you were free to give, that was used against you.

01:13:09 >> Yeah. and >> putting a note for myself. >> Yeah. And and we all uh we all have moments of weakness where we choose not to express our character well. But I think the journey of life when you can find this and if you can clarify this for yourself, if you can find the clarity is that my goal is just to love as myself and choose the yes into the degree of character over and over and over again until it is fully one like it's winning within me all the time.

01:13:50 Mhm. >> Uh and bad people uh quote unquote bad people. I don't think anyone is made bad. >> Yeah. >> Uh they are choosing to express themselves. They It's kind of they're turning inward instead of turning outward. Um and so that's that's what I think happens. That's maybe oversimplified and if you have any psychologists who are listening, there's probably way more complexity to that, but I think that that is helpful.

01:14:20 >> No, that is helpful for just a random question I wanted to ask while you were talking about character. Um, and we're talking about God. Um, but I I can see that how the wounds kind of lay on top because I feel like for me, um, how I was carrying the world at one point was I'm a bad person. >> Mhm. Um, and it's kind of weird that I would even think that about myself because it's like I've never intentionally hurt anybody, but I think over time, like back then with my first business and having so much feedback

01:15:02 constantly at me, um, or even seeing Reddit threads about me or even my burnout, like when I when I let go of my first business, this I did it quite impulsively and it was because I just couldn't see a way out and I was like I'm done like I'm so over this like I just want out and so within a week I just shut it down and I let go of my team and I you know disappointed a lot of people.

01:15:33 I pulled out of events that I told people that I would be there for. Um, and years later, I think when I was out of the physical burnout, I was still mentally burnt out and I think I was still spiritually burnt out. >> But once I was past my physical burnout, I started to see my situation differently. I started to judge my thought process and the decisions that I made.

01:15:58 Um, and I carried a lot of shame and I started wondering, am I a bad person? I am a bad person. >> Mhm. people lost jobs because of me. Yeah, of course. I tried to make sure everyone had a placement. But the truth of the matter is the comments would come and be like, "You fired all these people. Um, you disappointed all these clients who relied on you.

01:16:18 You're a flake. You can't be trusted." You know, and eventually I just started believing that. >> Mhm. >> Um, and people were making commentaries about my situation online. I didn't watch all of them because obviously it's just not good for the soul to do that. But I genuinely started believing that I am a terrible person >> and um I also started carrying shame because I felt like you know I burned down my business and then the first year I came back I was telling everybody oh I'm free and like money's not everything

01:16:57 just have enough and be happy with enough and then years passed again and the second year passed and I was like oh wait actually I kind of disagree with what I said before and I realized that there were certain things I could have done differently and you know I think I just matured my brain just matured over time but I still carried a lot of shame from an embarrassment I felt embarrassed I was like oh my gosh like I cannot like why did I burn down my business and then post a video about all the lessons I learned where

01:17:27 some of these lessons I don't even agree with anymore and I think I wasn't giving myself enough grace to grow as a person >> and I think that's also the complic licated relationship with being online where it's almost like you're capturing who you are in that moment of time, but you as a person personally, you're going to be growing. And so sometimes it's hard for me to look back at old decisions I made, old videos I made, things that I used to teach, or things that I used to preach and not feel shame and embarrassment.

01:17:56 >> Mhm. >> And then I start wondering, "Oh my gosh, am I even as smart as I think I am? Am I a bad person? da da da da da da da. Um, but then there's also I wrote a note because there's one thing that you mentioned in our coaching session that actually like has helped me a lot in terms of making better decisions or not letting the self-sabotage come in.

01:18:18 As you mentioned, the the devil loves to use your strengths against you. >> So, if your gift, let's use me as an example. I am a very naturally generous person. Whether that's YouTube videos and I'm just sharing what I'm learning and I'm not like I'm not charging people for it or my friends and family and treating them and all these things and how I treat other people in my personal life.

01:18:41 I'm very generous but at the same time that generosity has been used against me in a lot of ways where I've entered where I've rushed into relationships uh specifically coaching relationships where maybe I'm getting the short end of the stick but out of generosity I'm I'm I'm you know doing all the things or whatever. I won't go into the the the drama behind it, but after those experiences, I will tell myself, I'm never going to be generous like that again.

01:19:13 >> Mhm. >> I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to go there. And so, or even authenticity. Authenticity is a gift that has been reflected back to me by many people and yourself included in vulnerability. And then I started doing the yaps where I was super vulnerable and I was sharing, you know, a weekly progress almost or a monthly progress of the things that I was going through because authenticity is my strength.

01:19:36 Being honest is my strength. >> Mhm. >> But then it almost felt like the devil was using that against me too because now I feel like, oh, maybe I shouldn't be vulnerable anymore. I don't want to be authentic anymore cuz look what it gets me. It gets me judgment. It gets me people in my life now suddenly feeling like they have access to all the information.

01:19:54 like feeling like because I shared this aspect of my life that they can ask me questions about other aspects of my life and now they feel like you know entitled to my privacy. And so in a sense when you mentioned this I I did notice that where so many of the gifts that I have at one point in my journey I said I'm never doing this again. >> This sucks.

01:20:22 So >> yeah, the we're really going for it here. >> We are. >> Yeah. So if you are a good idea, right? If you are a good idea in God's mind, I actually believe Satan is a very intelligent being. Um and he would have seen the good idea that you were, that I was, that everyone was. and his strategy is to try and wound that so that our gifts aren't used to give to others, but they're used to gain something for ourselves.

01:20:56 So >> maybe one of the gifts that I have is uh I'll sit with somebody and I'll share insight into their life, right? And >> I can use that for your benefit, but I can also use that to manipulate you to get what I want from it. But you most people can tell the difference between those two things. But that's using the same gift for two different ends, two different purposes.

01:21:26 And uh the devil when he looked at the good idea that you were and because he's so intelligent, he understands who you were in God's mind, what God's design, you know, he looks at the architect >> and he says, "I know what they're trying to build." And he says, I want to I want to get this at the foundational level >> so that you turn inward upon yourself instead of at outward.

01:21:46 And all of our stories are in this. And it's like uh with generosity for you, it might be that you even tried to lean on generosity to earn your friendships, >> you know, or uh and it like when we're talking about character again, it's like there's this idea >> and this is an old idea on how to be human and it's called virtue. I'm sure you've heard about, you know, >> and virtue is always the middle of two vices.

01:22:16 And vice um is like so you can be generous is the virtue, being too generous is the vice and being miserly or you know stingy or whatever is the other vice. >> And so the only way we get to carry it as virtue is when it's carried in love, right? Where you're not being generous so that you can get something back in friendship or whatever. >> It's when love is the only way for us to actually like inhabit character.

01:22:50 Um, and uh, the devil went after the ways that you were made to love and tried to do that. It's right on top of each other to the point where >> as soon as somebody starts sharing their story with me, I can almost immediately go, "Oh, there's the gift. There's going to be the wound. It's going to be something to that." And it almost feels like a party trick at this point.

01:23:10 Uh but it has become so obvious that that is the case. At some whether you believe in the devil or not, at some point if you just sit with yourself and go, what are my gifts and then look at your story, you know, from the day you were born, maybe even sometimes before you were born, how something or someone or some force has gone after you not becoming the loving expression of your gifts.

01:23:42 >> Yeah. that I every time I sit down with somebody, that's what ends up happening. >> Well, when I met you, I was like, I think I might just not do YouTube anymore. >> I think I'm I'm done with it. Like, I don't know what direction I'm leading. Like, I don't know what I'm doing with this channel. I think before I was so clear because I had a structure.

01:24:01 I had a funnel. >> You know, I'm going to sell social media courses. So, every video is going to teach social media, which is going to link back to social media. D. And then when I came back, I didn't really have a funnel anymore. And so I decided, you know what? Let me just be myself and, you know, share. But then that also didn't feel good either because I'm like, I feel like every week is just a random topic and I don't really know where this is leading and connecting to.

01:24:35 And frankly, I feel like I'm getting the short end of the stick because I feel like I'm putting my heart and soul out here. And at the same time, I'm doing it for free and I also get criticized. So, I'm not getting paid and I'm getting criticized. Where what's in it for me? >> Mhm. >> Why? Like, this pain is not worth it anymore. >> Mhm. >> And so, I was like, you know what?

01:24:57 Maybe I'll just focus on Super Boba full-time and just forget about this YouTube thing. And it was such a shame because the channel was so close to a million subscribers and we recently hit a million subscribers which is crazy. But back to the topic of like the devil wanting to tear down the things that you've built. I think it was you that reminded me like how special it is to have grown this platform.

01:25:27 Like sometimes it doesn't clock me. >> We should grab your plaque. Yeah, we [laughter] can celebrate. We can celebrate it, but >> we hit a million subscribers. >> Nice. Show the camera. >> Which is so cool. Um, but sometimes I don't realize as much as like I was telling so basically where I was at was I was telling myself I'm a bad person. I don't deserve my success.

01:25:52 it was a fluke or I made bad decisions and how could anyone trust me again or I led people down the wrong path and I realized that it was not the right path but I'm still trying to figure out the path that I'm going on and at the same time I felt the weight and the pressure of being perceived as a leader so I felt like how can I it was like the blind leading the blind like how can I lead people if I don't even know where I'm leading myself >> and so I almost felt like you know what maybe I should just like exit.

01:26:23 Just get up. Just be just leave the game. I don't have a voice here. Like I don't listen to me. I don't even know what's going on. And so I was very close to giving up on this channel. >> Mhm. >> And it wasn't until I think you just reminded me like how many people followed me like this platform. It's it's huge. Like sometimes I don't even it doesn't even register to me.

01:26:52 And I think before I would think like, oh, people only follow me because I gave tips or people only followed me because I whatever. Um, but you reminded me that people a lot of people follow me for me. >> Mhm. And so when I hit a million subscribers, it was almost like a reset button was hit for me because of so many of the things that I've learned from you and also developing and deepening my relationship with God.

01:27:28 Like I think before I would always think that everything that I've achieved in my life is because I did it and I had to earn it and I had to work really hard for it and it's a grind and you know I was like basically like white knuckling everything. >> Mhm. >> And it wasn't until I realized like no actually God gifted these things to me. God like literally gave them to me and was like, "Hey, take care of this."

01:27:58 >> And it kind of clocked to me that I was not taking care of the things that God had given me. And I was also um also like in some sense being hyper attached to the material things that I have as well. >> Mh. And that was like a big thing for me like finances, you know, following all these things. Like I was just like this is mine and who am I without these things?

01:28:23 If if I lose all my money or if my my platform shuts down or all these things like who am I without this? And it wasn't until I realized like oh wait actually this is God's. This isn't mine. This is God's. He he gifted it to me but he can also take it away and that's okay. because there is a path for me and I have to trust in that. So regardless if it's YouTube or something else, like I'm going to be just okay.

01:28:51 And at the same time, while I still have this platform, while I still have this, I might as well love it to the best ability that I can. >> And a lot of that was thanks to the like the conversations we've had around love. So yeah, it's been >> Yeah, >> it's been cool. I don't know. I I don't want this to be a monologue, but you let me know what you think.

01:29:16 >> Love is the best. >> Love is the best. >> And uh it's so easy to forget that life is a gift. Uh and it's actually fragile. Like you and I could drive home today and be hit by, you know, be in a car accident and it's over, you know? And so how do we take care of the things that are ours for the time that we're asked to take care of them? And uh and so there's a a a tricky tension to hold where having this is a gift and you've also had to participate with that gift.

01:29:58 It's not like >> you just opened your YouTube account one day and there was a million followers. Like there's a journey that you've that you've um done that. And so it it introduces this concept of like grace, you know, like and grace is uh it's opposed to earning like but it's not opposed to effort. And so we can honor the effort that we put in and say, "Oh, like you you worked, you you poured your energy, you said yes to things, you did things when you were tired and angry and you know, like all those kinds of things

01:30:34 in order to keep moving forward." Um, but ultimately the gift that we have, like all the gifts, all the the literal gifts that you have and you know the who you are and what you're talented at and um you didn't do anything to get those either, right? Like you and I could could have been born quite differently, right? >> Um and so how do we steward what we have as a gift?

01:31:04 And I just love that you're moving from what got you from zero to a million followers on or subs on YouTube. I love the idea of like and we started talking maybe we can you know start to share what what's in your heart for okay like what do I end up sharing with people now? So there was one journey of your life that led you to a million subs, but now you're carrying it quite differently to go from a million to however many you're supposed to have.

01:31:34 >> Yeah. >> Um and that feels like the right way to hold it and you're detached. You know, if it does go away, that's okay. You know, the the Vanessa that'll be left at the end of that >> isn't you're not a million sub person. That's not who you are. That's just something that you do. >> Yeah. >> So, where do you want to go from here with the audience that you've been entrusted to to to love into?

01:32:05 >> There was one concept you briefly mentioned in our conversation that I've held on to and that was um being a bridge for people rather than being a ladder. And um I remember when I was talking to you basically about how I felt about being a creator and some of the resentment that I felt and initially um a lot of it was I was just tired of disappointing people.

01:32:36 Like I just felt like whatever I did was just never enough. um there would always be someone who said you didn't do this or you missed the mark on that or you said that I would have this and how come I don't have it yet and you reflected back to me and it made a lot of sense was that I was approaching my content at the time for many years as a ladder like hey look at me I'm up here I'm Vanessa Laauo look at look at how much money I've made look at how successful my businesses are if you follow these things that I share

01:33:07 you can get there too because you're making these mistakes that's keeping you stuck. And so a lot of my um content I didn't even realize it was like this until you like painted it for me cuz I was like why do people just like like why is my relationship with my audience like this? Like why does it feel so transactional? Why does it feel so exhausting?

01:33:29 And I know like, and I really hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, but I know for many creators after doing this for many years and all the parasocial relationships that start to develop, I don't know any creator who hasn't said that of like the audience that I used to love, I don't love anymore. And it's not even because they did anything. It's because my heart has hardened.

01:33:52 >> Like I am wounded and I don't want to be generous anymore or whatnot. But going back to the bridge versus ladder, the ladder concept is I was treating it as a ladder. And so it's no wonder why people would react that way if they didn't get a certain result or if they watched my videos and felt like it was almost like I'm not good enough and I need to get to where Vanessa's at.

01:34:16 And I think that's why a lot of people look up to me because they see me as an inspiration, but at the same time, they're seeing me as an inspiration while also seeing them as someone who's lacking something and they're missing something that they put responsibility on me to give them so that they can get to where I'm at. >> Mhm. >> But that's also because of me and the way that I'm carrying my videos and maybe the way that I'm approaching my life because that's how it's a reflection of how I feel.

01:34:45 I'm making these mistakes. I'm not there yet. Here are some things. Here's the method, the framework, the things that I need to do to get there and then I will be loved and then I will be accepted. The way that I saw myself and saw life was basically a ladder as well. And that reflected in my content, it reflected in my videos. And I didn't realize until, you know, we we started having conversations around it.

01:35:07 And I remember you calling it out to me and I was like, "But how else would I be? How else would I be, you know, how can I lead people?" I didn't understand how to lead people without being a ladder. >> Mhm. >> How do I bring people from point A to point B without doing that while also being perceived as a leader, while also being perceived as someone that's supposed to help people?

01:35:29 And then you mentioned, well, it's actually a bridge. It's meeting people where they're at, letting them know that it's okay and that they're enough already and then showing them a different way of doing things and inviting them into it rather than saying if you don't do this then this bad consequence will happen or if you don't do this then you are a lazy piece of and so you know do this and follow what I'm saying.

01:35:54 And so even though right now as we speak I don't have like full like this is what my channel's going to be about and like this is the topics that I'm going to share, I know that the way I'm going to approach it is different. >> Mhm. Like I want to be able to still teach because through me being in conversation with other people, with you, me putting myself back out there and like going to events and having feedback reaffirm to me that I am actually a really great teacher.

01:36:24 So I still want to be teaching and at the same time I'm honest and I'm authentic. And so for my channel I really want people to see that as well. and maybe bringing people into how I live my life. I think for so long I've been so used to just teaching and preaching, but now moving into being a bridge for people, I would rather just show them how I'm living.

01:36:48 And so I don't have to say you should do this, you got to do that. It's more of like here's how I'm doing things. Here's like, you know, how I'm feeling. Here's how I'm operating my business. Here's how I'm doing content. And these are the results that I've gotten and it's been amazing. Here's a different way that I've been doing things. And whether someone decides they want to do that or not, that's on them.

01:37:08 But I don't want to say if you don't do this, then you're going to stay stuck forever. So >> yeah, it feels like you're >> that's the vibe, >> the energy that I want to bring into my channel. Um, >> and also to your point, sorry, like >> for me, hitting a million is already so like amazing and enough. And I think before I would constantly think, how can I grow this channel?

01:37:36 How can I how can I get the next million? How can I get the next like 10,000 followers, 20,000 followers or whatever? But on the topic of like God gifted to God gifted this to me and I want to steward it well. To me, it just means taking care of the people that I already have. >> And so feeling less attached to like am I going to convert subscribers with this?

01:37:59 Am I going to like is this conversation going to go viral? It's like that's not really the goal anymore. I just want to share. I just want people to come to my channel and feel loved and that could be one person. And I think that's what's different right now as I enter this new chapter since hitting a million than how I was operating before. >> Yeah.

01:38:20 We're not gaming the algorithm anymore. We're not doing this. where you just kind of do it so that people feel loved and cared for. >> Yeah. >> In the way that you were made to be loved and cared for. >> Yeah. >> Um I'll I'll take a little bit of a risk here, but I'm very proud of you, you know, in the work and the journey that you've said yes to over the last >> 3 months, sure, together, four months, whatever that is.

01:38:43 But also over the last several years, you know, um it's been a gift to be able to connect connect a few dots for you in it, >> but I am very proud of who you are and what you're trying to do and that you're you're not just saying those last few sentences like I feel it in you that you're like, "Hey, this is a different way to move forward." >> Yeah.

01:39:09 >> And um yeah, you're living for others. Yeah, thank you. And you know, I again I I wanted us to have this conversation because there are so many things that in our time together um and the conversations that we've had that I've never had with anyone else >> and how we met was so unconventional in a sense where um you actually I think you do like strategic consulting for nonprofit organizations.

01:39:45 as your, you know, >> that's my main >> as your job. Like we're at your office right now. >> And so for us to kind of find each other through Kevin, through all of that, um, you're just different from a lot of the coaches that I've had before. A lot of the mentors I've had are like deep in the online space. >> Yeah. YOU'RE EVEN ON SOCIAL MEDIA, DOG.

01:40:06 LIKE [laughter] >> I I literally haven't posted anything in 10 years. I was like, "Hey, like when I post this video, like what am I going to who do what do I where do I send people if they want to get to know you better?" Um, but yeah, like I wanted us to have this conversation because I feel like so much of what I learned from you and from God. Uh, I just don't see talked online >> often.

01:40:32 And I think the position that I was in, although I feel like, oh, it's so unique and, you know, it's just me that goes through it, there's actually a lot of people that follow me that feel the same sentiment of how come I'm I'm still searching and and I still haven't found it yet. And not realizing that everything that they need to succeed is actually within them.

01:40:58 And if you actually see life from a place of love and no longer from a place of I need to earn my way to love, I need to earn my way to success. I need to earn and like work, you know, how many more uh just how many more uh amazing conversations would be happening? Like I think a lot of people that follow me, they they're into making content and posting online.

01:41:27 And sometimes we feel like we need to perform and say what everyone else is saying or feel like we need to like manufacture value. And I'm just thinking about how much the world could change if people just showed up as themselves and also feel confidence that who they are is already enough because that's just how God made them. Well, I'm honored that we get to share what we've been doing together, you know, over the period of time.

01:41:56 And you've actually changed me, too. >> Really? >> That's helpful. Okay. >> Uh >> uh >> I've always been accompanying people, you know, as a word. I've been walking with people and helping them see life differently. But Kevin saw he's like, "What you do in all these other places, you should be doing for people like Vanessa." And so, uh, I have a few other people who I don't, it's not really coaching.

01:42:23 It's like accompaniment mentorship. Like, it's kind of, you know, it breaks the mold of what coaching would be. Um, because I'm I'm coming with different things in there. But >> I actually found so much life in in being able to walk with you in that um that I am making more space for that in in my week and in my doing that. So, I don't have a ton, you know, maybe have like five five people at once and that's about my capacity, but uh we'll put a link in that if anyone is interested in doing that.

01:42:54 That would be great. >> Mhm. >> But, >> wow, I'm happy. Um, thank you for agreeing to be in front of all these millions of people and yeah, it's been such a blessing to like get to work together and I really hope that yeah, people walk away from this conversation and just have a different way of holding life and how they see their work and themselves. So, thank you, Jason. >> Me, too. Thanks for having me on.