She Staffed Her Profitable Startup With AI Agents | Claire Vo, ChatPRD Transcript, AI Summary & Key Points

00:00 I've built this constellation of nine open claws. I have a marketing one, and I have an EA, and I have a sales agent, and I have a support agent. So, I built this sort of like team around me so that I'm not the single point of failure on moving stuff forward. It's fully bootstrapped, no investment. I'm the only employee, [music] I'm the only owner, and I only work with who I want to work with.

00:19 >> So, what's the reason to not be a solo founder? >> [music] >> If you honestly just don't have the complete skill set to do all the jobs at hand. I think it is actually very hard to be a solo founder. If it goes poorly, it's on me. If it goes well, it's on me. >> So, what's the case for solo founding? >> To truly own your own company allows you to shape a life really want.

00:37 I can just say no to customers I don't want to work with. Literally, I could just ship stuff that sparks joy for me. >> It's not about the dictatorship, it's about choosing really what you want. I call it authorship. You still are the only full-time person on this, which is pretty remarkable. You have tons of people who are using Chat PRD. Um, so maybe you could talk through kind of what that what that original origin path was.

01:03 >> Yeah, it was like one of those classic product market fit stories where you build something and then you don't realize till after you build it that people really, really want it. And so, I'd started it as actually two year two two jobs ago. People thought I started it during Lunch Darkly. But I actually started it when I was CPTO at Color Health and um I was running this large product and engineering organization and we were doing pandemic work during the pandemic.

01:31 It was incredibly intense, very, very high scale business, very, very complicated. And despite my fancy title, I was also a PM on the team. That's just how it happens. And so, for a lot of our more technical initiatives, when we weren't well staffed to put a PM on it, I would just raise my hand and say, "Yeah, I can I can PM this. It's easy." And so, uh the origin story of Chat PRD is, you know, we had all had this like chat GPT moment um GPT 3.5 maybe at that time and I was using it to just do a little bit of product

02:03 work, learn what what this was. And one day I had a meeting with a client who had a very complicated data auditing problem they needed us to solve for them. So we needed to build this whole full data auditing and processing product for our platform. And the sweet PM that was on the the project looked at me and was like I have neither the capacity nor skill to do this particular like PM this particular product.

02:30 And I was like, "That's cool. I'll do it. I love it. I know I know what I'm doing here. I like data products." And that meeting was at 9:00 and by noon I sent her the Google Doc link of this like very robust it was like a split between a PRD and a technical spec. And she was like, "Claire, how did how did you do this? This is like five page long. It's very detailed.

02:50 It's exactly what the client wants." That's all fine, but I saw your calendar. You had meetings between now and then. How did you actually get this done? And I was like, "Oh, sweet summer child. Let me introduce you to this thing called chat GPT." And so my entire team was like, "Please teach me how you're doing this." cuz they were drowning in docs and specs and all that kind of stuff.

03:12 And so that happened about the same time where chat GPT launched the I don't even know what they call it anymore like the GPT marketplace. It's not a store cuz I've made zero dollars from it, but marketplace. And so I just shoved that prompt into a shared GPT. I put the most ridiculous Midjourney generated avatar of myself at a laptop. I called it chat PRD because I thought I was being cute.

03:40 Now three years later I'm stuck with the name chat PRD. Um and I sent it to my team and they started using it a lot. And then the next step was very natural which I don't have hobbies that don't make me money. And so I was like, you know, ChatGPT is not going to let me monetize this GPT in the in the marketplace. So, I'll just put up a landing page and see if anybody will give me a dollar.

04:04 This has been my classic like startup. Started a lot of startups. And every time I've started by saying, "Will somebody put in a credit card and give me a dollar?" And so I put up chatbrd.ai on this landing page. I explained what the GPT was. And I literally just put a stripe checkout form between my site and the publicly available GPT. >> Did you have an inkling that this might be something that you were going to be spending more time on, or was it more just like, "I'm curious.

04:33 Just maybe this is something that people will pay for. It would just be interesting to see." >> It would be in To me, I saw that people were using it. And I was curious if there was any commercial value. And I've done enough startups that I know that not every idea I have is a good one. And so the rubber really hits the road when somebody has to get out a credit card and pay for something.

04:53 So, I was just curious. I was like, "Let's see." And I tell everybody my original goal was like, "If this buys me a glass of wine a month, I'm like happy as can be." Um and then it was like it was starting to buy me a bottle of wine a month. And then it was starting to buy me a case of wine a month. And now it's it's much more than that. And so, you know, I really just wanted to put the friction of monetization between my idea and the market and see if I can make any money.

05:18 And it started to pick up. And so then I thought, "Well, it's really weird to just put a paywall in front of something that's like actually free." So then, at the same time, I was starting to code again, again with the help of these LLMs. And so I built kind of the first standalone version of chatbrd. And again, it was like a dollar a month. It was like $12 a year.

05:39 And I had thousands of people sign up and give me $12 $12 a year. And so I just kept increasing the price, kept building the product. I did this while basically for over the first 2 years of the product's lifetime. I was being a CPTO at large companies at Color Health and then at LaunchDarkly, and then I would come home and code. I would do support tickets in the morning, support tickets in the evening.

06:07 And eventually, it got to the point where it was enough of a business that I thought maybe I should spend maybe I should spend more time on it and then went full-time in about a year ago. >> What was what was the obviously there was probably some time when you could have done it earlier. You could have gone full-time on it earlier. What was the thing that kind of caused you to say like now is the right time?

06:33 And because I'm sure that there you're you know, this is a really great example, but I'm sure that there will be people in the future there have been people in the past who maybe had something similar happening, and they were trying to figure out for them like what was the actual decision that kind of caused you to flip and say now is the time. >> Well, there were there were a couple things.

06:51 You know, I always think about this business, and one I think what shape of this business do I want to be? So, it's fully bootstrapped. I've taken no investment. I'm the only employee. I'm the only owner, and I only work with who I want to work with, and mostly I want to work with AI agents. So, I started from the frame of like what kind of business do I want this to be relative to what kind of life do I want to live?

07:14 I could have funded it very easily. Um I could have done a lot of things, but I was very clear on what kind of life I wanted to live, and I was going to like work backwards from there on what I was going to do. And then the second question I always asked when working on Chap Ready, especially in those early years, was where am I actually resource constrained relative to return on investment?

07:35 So, if I wasn't capital constrained, it is it is and continues to be a profitable cash flowing entity. So, it wasn't capital constrained in that I thought that capital would necessarily inflect the business in a direction that made me happy. Um I wasn't even for the first 2 years time constrained on it because I was coding more than ever with the help of AI.

08:00 Like if it's still even then and then I it feels like the Stone Ages compared to how much I'm coding now. But even then it felt like I was coding with the power of 10 engineers. Um I had hired an engineer probably a year in part-time. So, I didn't feel like resource constrained. And so, it wasn't until I really felt my time was an actual constraint on the growth of the business that I went full-time.

08:28 And that did come at a trade-off because I do think part of why Chat Peridot does so well is it comes out of my experience of being a chief product and technology officer. I know how product teams work. I know how PMs work. I know how PMs use AI. And so, having, you know, skin in the game as a real executive while also building this business gave me, I think, perspective that made the product better over the over time that I didn't take lightly giving up.

08:58 >> You know, you you were talking about how you were working at Color and how um they were surprised that the team was surprised that you were able to do this with AI. Obviously, nowadays like everybody uses AI. So, so there was this interesting moment where AI had not sort of broken through even to really cutting edge teams like Color uh fully. And and I think there was also at this point maybe slightly after maybe you got started with Chat Peridot, there was the whole idea of like the the negative connotations of

09:25 like a GPT wrapper, right? Um and you know, ultimately though, I think there have been a lot of great companies that have been built off of these quote-unquote GPT wrappers, uh especially as it relates to people who have like distinct sort of unique insights around how the world works or how their industry works. You as being a product leader, there's one founder that I've worked with over the years.

09:47 His name is Adeel. He's a former high school principal. And so he built tools for teachers using AI and it's massively successful, fastest growing education tool product of all time. And I'm curious sort of what you think, what kind of like more meta reflections you have around kind of like utilizing AI in a place where you have sort of unique distinct earned insight and sort of how that lends itself to building great businesses.

10:13 Obviously it's worked for you with ChatGPT. I think it's working really well with that The company's called Magic School. But I'm curious like what what things you've learned about sort of applying your insights and also maybe if you have other examples of people who've done a really good job of this. >> Yeah, well, I you know, one I say I used to say in the early years, she may just be a rapper, but she's my rapper and that I actually do think the novel insight I have about being a great product leader.

10:39 I say writing with ChatGPT is like going through the ringer with Clearvo. People pay me a lot of money to run their product organizations. Going through and writing a spec with me with my 20 years of product experience and you know, consistently I said I would not have a business if you could one shot with Claude or one shot with ChatGPT at the same quality that this is outputting.

11:03 So I do think there's just generally opportunity at the application layer, especially if you have a very unique and unproven point of view on either how a job should get done or a unique workflow. You know, the second thing I think is more and more now market is saturated with noise and so I think founders and their companies are becoming one in the same in the market and you see a lot more around founder-led marketing.

11:34 And I think that was a second thing that really benefited me is I think anybody off the street potentially could have, you know, put together a product to GBT. In theory had the same tools, in theory approximated the same experience, but it wasn't by Clairevo, three times CPTO at Chief Product Officer on TikTok like posting on X with the market credibility that I had that kind of put some shine on the brand.

12:02 And so I think it's both it practically benefits the product to have that expertise, but it also benefits your brand and marketing to be very founder aligned with the product that you're the problem that you're solving. And so I think, you know, I I never loved this concept and you know, people have been successful at it. I just haven't of solving any problem without a personal tie or experience to that problem as a way to start a startup.

12:29 I know people sit around and they just go, "Ooh, what's going to make me money?" And this is this is trending or that's interesting or maybe I could do that, but they don't really have any experience in solving that problem or even know what that problem feels like. That has never been the way I've wanted to solve problems and never been the way I wanted to start companies.

12:47 I always start companies because I said, "This is a nightmare. I have experienced this nightmare and I want to solve solve this nightmare and I think I can build a solution." And so I do I do tend to take that approach when considering businesses to start is just my personal experience and can I bring that to bear in a way that technology helps scale.

13:07 >> When you've joined companies, like how do you think about the, you know, the the companies and sort of the founders' connection to what they're working on? Um is I imagine there's some extension there as well. >> Yeah, it's been interesting. I, you know, being a product leader under a founder is a hard job. And I say I tend to be the product founder that sticks after a sad trail failed pro- sorry, product leader that sticks after a sad trail of product leaders that have not made nice with founders.

13:34 I think product and being a CEO founder are very tightly aligned and often the CEO is the product founder. And so I I do think that relationship is very important. I obviously only want to go work for people who I have massive respect for, who built products that I think are interesting. I think on that particular piece, I I think I come into those organizations and those roles with massive respect for the founder role and massive respect for the CEO.

14:08 And in fact, respect that founders and CEOs can make not data-backed decisions, so with no data, that are still directionally correct, because they have sat with the problem the longest. And so I I, you know, I I do like that relationship. I think it's really fruitful, but I think it's because I've been in that seat and I know how special it is to be a founder CEO, how much more deeply you understand the problem, even if you're not able to communicate it as effectively as you want all the time.

14:36 Um, so I've had those relationships. They've been really collaborative and fun. I don't mind I don't mind working on somebody else's stuff. >> Totally. And I I guess um, what I'd be really curious about is um, you you said at one point that like Riz is the moat. Uh, so so say more about that, because is I feel like that ties in really nicely to the people that you've worked with.

14:57 Um, also what you're building now. >> Yeah, I mean, people ask me all the time, like Claire, when AI has come for our PRDs and they come for our code and they come for our Jira and, you know, they come for our stand-ups, what is left for me to do? And I think there are a couple things that I I often tell either founders or product people are left for them to do in this world.

15:22 One is figure out where their product problems intersect the commercial appetite of a market, which is again back to the beginning of the story, like products Companies exist to make money, whether or not we act like that all the time. And so, you know, people spending more time not on building but on figuring out this exchange of value in the market, whether with consumers or or enterprises, I think is an interesting place to spend time.

15:47 The second thing I think is coming up with novel ideas from first principles, I honestly think LLMs are pretty bad at. They're fine building buddies, they're not actually that creative um brainstorming buddies, and I've done this a lot. But the third thing is I think you have to inspire fellowship. As a founder, as a leader, as someone in the market, you need to inspire your team to come along with you in this journey and build what you want them to build.

16:16 You have to inspire investors to buy into what you're doing. You have to inspire the market that you're the right solution for them. And this is where this like rizz is the only mo, which is a human's ability to inspire movement in other humans, I still think is a differentiating value in this in this AI world. And I would love to see more people develop that skill of influence, charisma, market facing um market facing communication because I think the robots can do the rest.

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17:26 >> Random tangent here, but you know, you spent a lot of time building in Austin prior to coming to San Francisco. Um in many ways, Austin culturally is very different, not even just the tech side of things, but culturally is very different than San Francisco. Uh what do you think that Austin has uh everybody talks about how great San Francisco is. I mean, it's great.

17:44 What do you think Austin has in terms of things like maybe charisma or around or around or around storytelling or around something that maybe maybe is like lacking or different in San Francisco? >> I say everybody in Austin is tan, fit, and happy. Like there is there is this thing in Austin where there is not the 996 grind, like I'm going to go into the token mines and do whatever it takes to achieve some venture-backed outcome.

18:14 There is, I think, in Austin a slightly more diverse industry base. I mean, it's a it's a university town, so it's a research university town. It's got government in it. It's politically quite diverse and perhaps polarized, and tech is not the dominant industry. And so, I think you get a much more balanced kind of community and ecosystem in technology, which makes I mean, I would say it's not a top three tech city.

18:42 >> Definitely. >> But you're starting to see media come out of it. You're starting to see other interesting offshoots of, you know, communities like Alpha School. There's a bunch of podcasts. You have the adjacent cities of SpaceX and some of the hardware stuff happening in Texas. And so, I do think you get this like more balanced person out of Austin.

19:03 Um and then I do think there it's, you know, everybody everybody I know in Austin is having a good time. So, I'm not I'm not sure everybody in San Francisco's having a good time. Everybody in San Francisco is minting money, but I don't know if they're having a good time. >> Yeah, I think that I mean I think that's true. I also think that if you I don't know it does feel like there is a little bit more individualism in some ways in in a place like Texas.

19:25 >> Yeah, I I I do I agree with that. I also think there is a little bit more diversity in what people think makes for successful life. Like I think we do have a monoculture here in the Bay Area around success. I think a lot of people have success dysphoria where they have no idea how good they have it, no idea how in the 1% they are. And I think in you know, in Texas, in other non-coastal cities, I think you're going to see a diversity of lifestyles.

19:59 You're going to see a diversity of economic achievement. And you also get to see a diversity of businesses. And I think that's what's different about what I'm building with Chap PRD is I tell people, "Look, it's a technology company, but it's not a tech startup. I'm really building a small business. I want it to be cash flowing. I want it to be high leverage.

20:19 I want it to be mine. I want it to serve my life. I don't want to serve it." And you can see those sites types of entrepreneurs, CPG, retail, all sorts of different ones in Austin. And so I think you also see different shapes of business that can inform what kind of software business you might build. >> And I think that that's kind of, you know, an interesting an interesting sort of avenue to go on next with conversation around Chap PRD because you know, in many ways there's such a sort of standard playbook for how

20:47 companies should be built in San Francisco. And in many ways that playbook works for certain types of companies. But at the same time it kind of robs people of the ability to if you if you follow it in an exacting way, you're essentially following a factory model of making things. And there's so many other ways to make things that could be successful and that could have the outcome potentially, you know, a venture scale outcome.

21:13 Um you know, one of my friends uh is guy named Yasser. He's the founder of a company called Chapbase and they're at 10 million ARR in 3 years. They're doing really well. Um they never raised any money and that's not to say that somebody who is building the same business couldn't or shouldn't raise money. Um but, you know, he chose to do it that way and here it's looked at as a very bizarre thing, you know?

21:33 Uh whereas if you were building that company someplace else, which which you started out building it in Canada, uh maybe not quite as weird. Um but, I think there's something really interesting about the approach that you've taken. Not to say that it's right for everyone, just as to say that, you know, doing an accelerator or raising funding isn't right for isn't right for everyone either.

21:53 But, I'm curious kind of, you know, what what kinds of people maybe have reached out to you for feedback or like what kinds of questions people have had in the past about sort of the decisions you've made and why you've made them. >> Well, I you know what what So, for people that you know, it's not very clear. I've taken zero venture capital for ChapR&D.

22:10 Not that it hasn't been offered, but I have taken it's it's not very clear. I I I raised venture capital for my last startup. So, I went through an accelerator. I raised venture capital. It was acquired. I I did that game. And I came to this now 20-plus years into my tech career with a very clear idea of what my I wanted my life to be. And sorry, I don't really want a board.

22:35 I don't really want to grind to a potential multi-billion dollar outcome. I've got three amazing kids at home that I will not trade a a penny for time with them. And am I convinced that the TAM for an AI platform for product managers is $10 billion? No, I'm not convinced that that's the TAM. Am I convinced that it's going to make me a lot of money? Absolutely.

23:01 And so, I came to this with a very intentional design of why I was building this business in this specific way. Now, what I get asked a lot is like, "Claire, you bootstrapped it. Why can't I bootstrap it? Or how did you get distribution? Or how do you get this audience?" And I think what people don't appreciate is the reason I am able to bootstrap this and the reason I have been able to do this by myself is I have accrued two decades of technology expertise, network, um distribution.

23:32 I've been coding for three decades. I have worked, you know, fancy tech jobs where I could self-fund and have capital to put into the business if I want to. Um and I know what I don't know and I know what I know. And so, I have all this like built up 20-plus years expertise that allows me all this stuff. That I could not have done this the first time I did a startup.

23:56 I wouldn't have the resources both internal and external to to pull it off. And so, I don't think you can bootstrap to this without some set of resources, whether financial or otherwise. But I do get asked, you know, how can how can I do this the same? And I say, "Well, start 5 years ago building an audience. And start 20 years ago building expertise."

24:19 Like it does take time. Um you know, it's that classic like 20-year overnight success where people don't see all the work that came into getting to this point. >> I mean, it it's especially nowadays where the technology part of it is really in in many ways some of the some of the smallest part of it, right? Like the the the network, the the the legibility of sort of what you're building, and the and the trust that people would have because they know you, they know that you've been doing [clears throat] product

24:49 leadership for a quite some time now across multiple great companies. Um that's the thing that gives people the trust, not the fact that the website looks, you know, a certain way or because, you know, you uh you you raised the money from from a couple of investors or something like that. And uh and it kind of goes back to that thing we were talking about, where like the res is the is the moat.

25:10 The thing that's really interesting about that is kind of this um this this idea that um that ultimately uh if you can figure out what your strengths are and the things that you have that give you a competitive advantage, uh you have this really great opportunity to build something wonderful. >> Yes. >> Um but so many people just kind of don't do that for some reason.

25:30 They kind of shy away from the thing that they're good at. Why do you think that sometimes people move away from the things that they're good at to try and do something else? Is it that they think that the other thing, because they don't know about it, it it's actually easier than than it than it actually seems? Or what do you think that actually causes people to move away from their actual skills or advantages?

25:49 >> I think people don't know what's going to make them happy. And I think people think that running the playbook and these out honestly still outlier stories of success are going to be what make them happy. And so they think if I put myself into this machine, out the other end will spit happy me that has, you know, a billion-dollar business. And I think it really it and and so they are they, this is my experience, sacrifice a lot in the interim telling themselves that story.

26:23 And at the end of the day, that is not actually the source. Uh it's like truly know thyself. And you know, I I just spent spent a lot of time on myself and and observing how other founders did things and observing outcomes of businesses that I really loved and observing my own experience running a startup. And I just know what sparks joy. And I also know very clearly what I will be thinking about on my deathbed.

26:51 Like I just I know that very well, and I promise you it will not be the renewal rate of a SaaS business. Like, that will not be the thing in 50 years or 60 years or 70, you know, I'm I'm shooting for 120, so many years, I'm just not going to be I'm not going to be thinking about it. I'm not going to be thinking about run rate then. What am I going to be thinking about?

27:09 And so, I really want to build a business that serves me, that serves my kids, that serves my husband, that serves the people that I employ that I love, that serves a community that I think has given me a lot that I can give back to. And like, any anybody else's idea of what that is supposed to look like is their business, not my business >> [laughter] >> my business.

27:30 And I just wish more people could get to that point because one of the things that I think is so exciting about this moment in AI is you have a lot of optionality. You don't have to raise venture if you don't want to. You can raise a lot of venture if you want to. There's actually the opportunity to commercialize much smaller businesses because the capital required is much lower.

27:52 And so, if you can know what your own personal goals are, you have a lot of options in shaping how you pursue those goals. And I think people don't spend enough time questioning like, what is all this for and why am I doing it and will it really make me happy? >> Was there a moment or a period that kind of caused you to reflect and think about that?

28:12 Or was it more of an sort of an evolving thing that happened? Or do you feel like you're generally more attuned to that than other people? >> Well, you know, this is like this is a you know, it's a sad story, but I had a colleague that I worked with a long time ago, many, many years ago. Um, and somebody a member of their family passed away. And I went to the funeral and I counted the number of people that were there from this company.

28:34 And this company had 500 people at it. And I went to this it was very sad situation. I went to the funeral and I just didn't see that many people from like you have 500 plus people. I just didn't see that many people. And I thought, "You know what? None of this, like very little of this, is going to come back to me in the moments that matter. And so, I really thought it is super important for me to optimize how and when I spend my time, and who and how I invest in.

29:02 And I was very sure, like it just very short of who's going to be there at the end of the day, and who's not. And I think there's moments like that, very personal moments, but then just make you reflect on your behaviors on at work. Where you spend your time, who you work with, who you give what, why you do things, why you take from people, why you give to people.

29:25 And I think that was a very clarifying moment for me. It was an external moment for me, but it was a very clarifying moment for me to say, "Really staying anchored in my values and what matters to me is going to cultivate a very happy life." And I will tell you, everybody that that I talk to, come to me, they're like, "Claire, how are you doing?" I'm like, "I am living my best life.

29:44 I am happy. I am having fun. I'm spending time on things I find intellectually interesting. I'm spending time with people I found intellectually interesting. I have too many kids. It's great. Um, and even, you know, people come like gently knocking on my door. They're like, "Would you ever sell it?" And I say, "Look, there may be a 10x multiple on the revenue, and there is a 100x multiple on my happiness.

30:09 So, you know, maybe I'll compromise somewhere in the middle there. >> [laughter] >> You know, I'm not stupid. But I I do think just being really like two feet on the ground, grounded in what I want, what I care about, what makes me happy, it just makes all that other stuff fall away. >> You know, I you ended on such a happy note. But to go back to uh sort of funerals and things like that.

30:31 Um, there was a really affecting piece that maybe came out 10 years ago that just sort of resurfaced on the internet. It was essentially this idea, I think it was called like go to the funeral. >> Yep. Oh, yeah. >> And and did you do you see it come across? >> I did see it pop up again. >> it really really affected me. Uh but essentially for for those who are listening or watching who who who aren't familiar with this, um it's this idea of you should do things not because they are like immediately beneficial or because

31:05 um because you feel like you actually have some like real debt to go there, but you should do them because they're just like the right thing they're the right thing to do. Um I'm curious how you think about that uh in your life because you know, it sounds like you were really close to this co-worker, but a lot of people didn't go, you know, to to something like that.

31:23 What what is it about sort of like showing up for people or um like it sounds like you read that and it resonated with you. So like what what's the thing that resonates from you on that sort of thing? >> Yeah, I mean, what's what's interesting is I I wouldn't even claim to be have been incredibly close to that person, but I spent 8 hours a day around them for 3 years.

31:44 Like that is not nothing. Um and and I really do believe that there are some social threads that take effort to maintain, but that are worthwhile and they give to others just as much as you you get out of it. And so I've always really believed that, you know, there are just moments that you show up for. Um there are things that you do that like hedonic pursuit is not the highest calling of like human humanity.

32:15 And so I do believe cultivating a sense of community, even obliga- even obligation to each other, I think is quite healthy. It's something that I want to demonstrate for my children. And I do think a lot of, you know, in 30 or 50 or whatever years, am I going to regret having done this? No. Am I going to regret maybe not doing it? Probably. And so I try to I try to just zoom out a lot in in my life and it really helps you identify what's what's important.

32:50 I also just think there is this essential humanity that we all start to lose when we interact with each other through phones and or we like stop interacting with each other and we start to talk to chatbots. And I think like staying staying anchored in your humanity is is very important. So I try to do it. >> Can you share a little bit more on that note about how you've managed to build sort of this incredible business um pretty much you know you have some fractional people but pretty much on your own with AI, right?

33:18 You're you're you're you're the only full-time person on it. >> I'm the only full-time person. >> How do you do that? Like how like do you think it's a a personality thing that that sort of lends to it? Do you think some people there's there's one founder he's he's not bootstrapped he's raising a lot of money his name is Ben he's building a company called Pulsia and his whole thing is he wants to try and be the only person working on this company for as long as possible if not forever.

33:42 Um and then a lot of people who who saw listen to the podcast episode with him said, "That sounds miserable. I couldn't imagine doing it." You on the other hand like you you've kind of are doing something similar in the sense that you have mostly it's it's just you full-time. So how how do how does that work? How do you think about it? What have you learned from that experience?

34:01 >> It's funny people see me on stage and they see the podcast and they're like, "Claire, you must be the biggest extrovert." I'm like, "I am truly the biggest introvert on the face of the earth. I could be in my home and see no one but my family for years and be very [laughter] be very happy. So I do think I'm like actually quite introverted. I do not get my energy from like being amongst people.

34:26 Um I I love I love people. I love my friends. I love people that I'm around. I but it's not where I derive energy from. So, I do think there's a personality aspect to it. There's also a skill aspect to it as well. I'm just very fluent across a lot of practices. So, I can code. I've led product organizations. If you've led product organizations, you're functionally an enterprise sales person.

34:51 So, I can sell. I can do marketing because I'm doing this podcast and I'm, you know, very eloquent in front of customers and eloquent in front of the market. I can speak on stage. And so, I have the skills to do a lot of things in the business, which means I'm able to get a lot of leverage around AI. Whereas somebody who is not as, I would say, well-rounded in their skill set would maybe have a harder time running a business.

35:15 I mean, the thing The second thing is I have a lot of management experience. And guess what? Agents are just management. So, the ability to design an org, um give jobs to people, give jobs to agents, um figure out the kind of norms and operating model, and then, you know, hold them to account. I think that is also a skill that translates really well to kind of like the solo founder life.

35:41 Um I I know lots of people who it would be absolutely their nightmare to do what I'm doing by myself. And And you do have to carry a lot, right? Like if it goes poorly, it's on me. If it goes well, it's it's on me. I do sometimes find myself doing like very low-level tactical stuff because I like it. And so, there are, you know, pitfalls, I would say, to this model, but it fits my personality and my skill set and my lifestyle really well.

36:08 So, I think if you're if you're if you have the inclination, it's it's definitely possible. >> You know, I often ask people why solo found, like why are you being a solo founder? Um you've had co-founders in the past for for your more traditional sort of startups. Um but, you know, it it seems fairly clear why you wouldn't have a co-founder in something like this, which is both personal and very tied to kind of the life you want to live.

36:35 Um, but maybe you could share a little bit more about what it's like building this as a solo founder, kind of um, how you think about like spending your time. I think that a lot of people, you know, if even if you are a generalist or really good at a lot of things, generalist doesn't necessarily imply that you're good at a lot of things, but like you you have a lot of skills that are wide ranging.

36:57 Um, that doesn't necessarily mean that uh, it's easy always to do all of the things that are necessary even with all of the tools. So, I'm curious as a solo founder, kind of what you've learned about building a business solo. Uh, and what that what what might be useful there for other people who are listening. >> Well, again, like know thyself. And one of the things that is very clear, having done this for 3 years, is I am an engineer at heart.

37:21 I will literally build any feature, any feature on the face of the earth to avoid marketing. 100% like write a blog post about this awesome launch we did or launch 10 other things, I will definitely launch 10 other things. And so, you do have to really watch your own inclinations to where you want to spike deep, and you have to sort of like build systems that support your special shape as a solo founder.

37:48 And so, I've built this like constellation of nine open claws. I have a marketing one, I have an EA, I have who was emailing you that I was late. Um, I have an EA, I have um, a sales person, I have a support person person, I have a support agent. So, I've built this sort of like team around me so that I'm not the single point of failure on moving stuff forward.

38:11 And then I've organized my day in that I, you know, swallow the frog. I do the stuff that I'm least inclined to naturally do up front, and then leave the afternoon for building, which I would build anyway. So, I do all my sales calls in the morning. I do all my marketing in the morning. I do all my podcasting work in the morning. I kind of like front-load all that stuff.

38:30 And then when I have this free time in the afternoon, I know I'm going to spend it coding, and that's what that's what I do. And so, I do think you have to sort of like know yourself. I also will say, again, I kept this eye on like where am I resource-constrained. And I did hire our first engineer um a year to Chappie and the reason I did this, again, very lifestyle aligned is it was fourth It was 2 years ago.

38:54 It was 4th of July weekend, and we went down to Santa Cruz with I had two kids at the time. Now I have three. I had two kids. And the kids were like playing in the background, and I was like dealing with some Century Some some dumb like OpenAI outage or some Century issue, and I was like doing a PR, and I just looked at my kids. I was like, "This is crazy, Claire.

39:17 Like you cannot be sitting on your laptop on 4th of July weekend pushing PRs because you're the single point of failure on on engineering." So, like 2 days later, I hired the engineer that's that's working with us today. And so, now we have this like nice balance, I'd say, of of of engineering support on on the company. And so, every point where I felt like, "You know, Claire, it's just a little cuckoo that you're spending your time doing this compared It was always compared to like being able to spend time with my

39:46 kids." It actually had nothing to do with business. I would that's when I would hire somebody to do something. >> Now, I know you shared with like our our mutual friend Lenny uh sort of how you think about Open Claw, but maybe if you could give kind of the primer about this because, you know, I a lot of people have different philosophies around using AI, using agents.

40:05 Um some people think that it's better to have sort of one agent that has lots of context across various things. You're It sounds like you're taking more of the constellation approach. >> Yep. >> How How would you say as like a as a solo founder you've made those decisions? What have you learned? What have you experimented with? >> So, I much much much prefer agent identities that represent an employee or represent a function.

40:27 It It's how my mental model It's how I've worked in previous companies, right? Like I had didn't have one employee that I worked with that, you know, federated out work to everybody else. I had my chief of staff and I had my product managers and I had my engineers and my support team. And I was I'm able to pretty clearly define what each of those jobs and ideal profile of a an employee should be and I just applied that exact same model to my open claws.

40:52 So, instead of making one mega claw, I made nine mini claws. They all have their own identity. They all have their own tools. They all have their own workspaces. They all get better at their jobs over time. I give them all individual coaching. Um and it's just worked better for me operationally and it's worked better for me, I think, technically because scoping an agent to a job to be done is much easier than building this like all-knowing multi-purpose agent that has to navigate your your whole business even if a

41:24 business is relatively small like I talked to you. So, that's been my approach. I think we're going to see I mean, we've seen this in coding, right? No one said like, "Why is Devin by Cognition? Like why doesn't Devin just do everything?" It's cuz Devin's good at coding. Devin's Devin's your coding agent. So, let's let Devin be good at that. I I take that same approach to my agents.

41:43 Um and then I work on so many different things. I like the mental model of if I'm spinning up a project, I can just spin up an agent for that very specific project, give it a very specific identity and set of tools, and let it loose in a constrained space, and it tends to do a very very good job then because it's well-defined. I think about it the same way I think about employees.

42:05 Like, can I tell you what your job is? Can I tell you what success looks like? Can I give you the tools that you need to do the job well, and do I spend enough time with you that you're getting better over time? And it's much easier for me to do that with individual agents than with like the mega agent. >> I think this is the first time we've gotten a message, multiple messages, from an Open Claw agent saying that somebody was running late and apologizing on their behalf and offering to reschedule if it made sense.

42:33 [laughter] Um not not not putting this as a way to make you feel badly for being late because it was not a problem at all. We were just remarking about how interesting it was to have that happen and how seemingly accurate it was. Also, how it was warning us sort of far in advance. Um what's actually going on under the hood there? Like just get take me through a case study of this because uh essentially I think that we got our first notification from your agent, which is maybe called Polly.

43:01 Um and Polly said that maybe it was an hour and a half before. We never get a message that somebody's running late an hour and a half before. It was super nice to know, right? Because we were like, "Okay, we don't have to we don't have to be exactly on time if we needed to do something else." But what's actually going on there? How does it how does it work?

43:21 >> Yeah, I'll walk you through it. So, Polly is my EA. Um and so, she handles scheduling, research, um pre-meeting briefs. So, every 15 minutes she's like, "Hey, just FYI, you're about to go into this podcast and here's who you're meeting with and this is where it is." And so, she's sort of like my my work personal assistant. I also have a family personal assistant named Finley um that works for my husband and I.

43:45 And so, Polly, to this today, looked at my schedule and was like, "Whoops, I really put you back-to-back on a really tight schedule across the city." And so, as I was parking at meeting number one, I sent Polly a voice note and I said, "I'm I'm sure I'm going to make it to this on time. Can you let them know? And so I think she sent that. I don't even even know if she sent that email.

44:11 What What Polly sends is none of my business. So, I think she sent I think she sent an email. And then, as I was just like sitting in deadlocked traffic, I sent another Telegram note to Polly cuz I use her through Telegram. It was a voice note because I don't want to type. I sent a voice note and I said, "I am stuck in traffic. It's getting worse. Config is downtown.

44:31 Apologize. This is when I think I'm going to be there. If they want to reschedule, let them like let me know. I'm super flexible. Just handle it." You know, it's it's um as my friend Hillary says, "It's the yapper's API." It just yapped at them. Well, and I think she did a good job. Um and so, Polly has her own email address. She has access to my calendar.

44:53 She has access read access to my email, so she has context on what's going on. She has instructions um on when she's allowed to send emails and when she's not and when she has to brief me and when she doesn't. Then, she has, you know, again, um I've designed her to be very seemingly proactive to me. So, every 15 minutes she checks on what I'm doing next and reminds me who I'm meeting with.

45:16 Um every day she gives me a morning brief of what's going on. Every afternoon, she and Finley, who's my family agent, conspire to make sure that somebody's picking up the kids. So, [laughter] it's like it's like, "Hey Claire, you're going to be downtown and your husband's going to be over here and the kids are in two different basketball camps. Like, are you very sure somebody's got them?"

45:38 Um and so, we do do a lot of a lot of that stuff and then she builds playbooks and all right, you know. >> That's really interesting. Um so, uh what one thing that one thing that comes to mind uh with these with these agents and and and utilizing in this way is um this idea of when an agent is transparently AI versus when something is trying to not be AI and trying to act in the background.

46:03 My sort of take on this is that generally people are happy to interact with AI as long as they know that it's AI, but they don't like it when something feels like it's maybe not AI or it's maybe AI and there's that ambiguity. >> Yep. >> Or it's something that's sloppy and trying to pass off as this kind of insults their intelligence. So, I really like the approach of, you know, this is being very open that like, "Hey, I'm, you know, the AI the AI agent."

46:28 Um I'm curious how this dovetails to Chat GPT, which it which is um you know, or or generating anything with AI. Um one thing that I I I know your friends you're also friends with Dan Shipper. Um one thing that he put out fairly recently was this idea that have AI generate whatever you want it to, >> Yep. >> but own the actual content that the AI puts out.

46:57 So, if you can't explain or defend whatever is in the generated document by AI, then you're not doing your job as a teammate because you're just sort of like not even proofreading or whatever. I'm curious how you think about sort of use of AI for generation, use of AI for agents, and sort of that aspect of like human accountability, that sort of thing.

47:18 >> Yeah, I mean I think the folks at Linear also have an interesting approach here where you can't assign things to agents, you can only delegate things to agents. It's a very interesting nuance, but essentially same concept. An agent can't own anything. I don't know. I'm going to be a little extreme here. I think agents can own things. Now, ultimately I'm accountable to the performance of all systems in my business, whether human or agent.

47:44 And I think this is where maybe I have the experience and perspective of somebody who has, as I said, like held the ultimate pager um in organizations because I ran large engineering organizations, P0, engineer sleeps through it, his manager has a hard time. Guess who's getting paged at 2:00 in the morning? It's me. And so, I have seen the failure states of human ownership, and I don't think there's that much difference between the failure states of human ownership and agent ownership.

48:12 And so, I think I'm probably on the spectrum a little bit more willing to delegate quote-unquote ownership to agents because I think this is where This is where we're going. And maybe ultimately I'm accountable. But that would be the same as if there was a human in the loop versus an agent. So, I don't think of them that differently. In terms of transparency of agent versus not, Polly has a signature.

48:39 It's got the little lobster open claw signature in it. So, it's like if you know, you know. It's like Polly Claire's lobster assistant. And so, people that know know what that is. People that maybe don't are like sort of in this ambiguous spot. And maybe they they don't they don't really care. Um I do have a sales agent. Sorry, Chat GPT prospects, Sam.

49:02 Um who does all my um replies to all my inbound, sets up all my meetings on sales, runs pipeline, all that kind of stuff. People definitely think Sam is real. Um and they show up to meetings they're like, "Is Sam joining me?" And I'm like joining I'm like, "Oh, I'm sorry. Sam is not Sam is not a human." >> Dark purple. >> Um but but because I'm Claire, how I AI though, because I'm building an AI product, my customers love that because it's just a demonstration of this sort of like AI first model and AI first way of

49:32 operating that I think they find sort of like interesting and and inspirational as opposed to um devious. So, I I take that approach. >> The How I AI is is really successful. I mean, you have nearly 100,000 subscribers on YouTube. Um I think you have something like 300 videos. That's really really impressive, like very prolific. At the same time, you said that, you know, if you didn't sort of kind of control for maybe your predisposition or sort of where you would spend your time, you probably wouldn't be doing that.

50:04 You'd probably be, you know, coding or something, building features. So, maybe you could share a little bit more about when you decided to start making that. Sort of what was the inspiration behind it? How you think about media and storytelling when it comes to, you know, attracting clients and and sort of is that is that more of a like a thing around getting building awareness or authority or how do you how do you think about that?

50:29 >> good news is my best performing podcasts are ones where I am coding. So, that [laughter] is very interesting. Yeah, validation. And so, this is a podcast that I launched a little over a year ago with Lenny. And our whole hypothesis was that there was appetite for real hands-on demonstration of AI use. And we started with a lot of interviews of people just using AI in their day-to-day workflows and exploring how they were using different tools and how it was impacting how they they did their work or how they lived

50:59 their life. And it's sort of evolved to be a little bit more balanced. It's about half interviews and then half me solo going through specific workflows, looking at models, explaining tools, and just generally demystifying AI for folks. What I love about the podcast, it is actually perfectly in my zone of genius, which is I technically do it alone in my house, so I'm very happy introvert.

51:21 I get to learn so much because I just talk to interesting people and they show me interesting things that they do with AI and then I go take it and I use it and I use it in my own code, I use it in my own business. So, it is this really great learning experience and it just creates more visibility for me as a founder, it creates more visibility for my product, it creates more visibility for people that I think are doing great things in the market overall.

51:46 And so, it's been a really wonderful investment of of my time and you know, I think podcasting and media can be a great business, but the thing that I value the most out of it is I learn. Like it is just an excuse to talk to the smartest people in the space about what they're doing, and that's a real like that is a um intangible benefit that I think really pays off in in my charity business.

52:13 >> I think it's a I mean, part of the reason that I do the Solo Founders podcast is because I I want to learn, you know, from from people I feel like solo founding is something that um is still being figured out. Like everybody's doing it differently. Um you know, there are more playbooks and rules of thumb for how to build startups with co-founders.

52:30 Uh so so part of this is is you know, a lot of this is to learn, and you don't you wouldn't be able to learn from people nearly the same level of depth unless you had sort of a you know, an avenue for an excuse to talk to people. >> It's an excuse. >> The thing that's really interesting about the podcast uh or the YouTube channel, I should say, um is that you have this variety.

52:50 So, it's not just interviews, it's not just the the coding and product videos. Um is that something you started with early on? Is that something that you've learned anything about? Because I think that often times people are a little bit worried, and I'll say honestly like I don't know uh on my end uh you know, what we should be doing. With the Solo Founders, we mostly do interviews.

53:09 At one point we uh we did this video where we did sort of uh it was me sort of going past through past conversations and sort of having this thread connecting each conversation and then little clips and commentary about each of them. People loved it. They said this was amazing. We did it frankly because we we had sort of a a lull in the in [laughter] the in the catalog.

53:30 We were like, we got we got to we got to try and uh we got to try something new here. Um people loved it, but you know, I guess it's one of those things where I'm curious sort of what you've learned because you know, on our end we we haven't really tried much beyond the interviews, but the one time we did, it showed some promise. So, yeah, I just want to learn what you learned.

53:49 >> Yeah, so what I one What's so fun about the podcast is I don't know if you can tell, I am like a relentless learner. And so, it's very interesting to learn a new business and learn a new product. And so, I just definitely approach the podcast like a product. Like, what are we trying to achieve here? Like, I'm trying to bring incredible value to our viewers and listeners.

54:09 I want to make sure our sponsors feel like they're really well taken care of and that their investment is is a great one and I want to learn a bunch. And so, what am I trying to achieve? And then I back into Well, what are the What should be the shape of this? And how do we execute on it well? And again, you just approach it like a product. And so, you can say we have a product portfolio.

54:28 We have our interviews product. We have our models review product. We have our mini episodes product. And how is the market What's the product market fit for any of those products? And then where do we double down and get more leverage on things that work for us? And it took a lot of experimentation and I would say not all of it was purposeful. So, early on, there was just stuff that I wanted to talk about that didn't fit the interview format.

54:56 And so, I just created content. We didn't We It wasn't even actually ad sponsored for us. It was just completely, um, you know, free content that we did that people really liked. And so, once we figured out people like this certain style of solo content, we could then build an editorial calendar around it and a sponsorship calendar around it that made sense for us and our sponsors and our listeners.

55:20 And so, it was a lot of iteration and now we're very data driven. But by we, I mean Howie, the How I AI Open Claw is very data driven. So, Howie runs a tight ship. Howie is doing like all of our um analytics post release, looking at all of our AB tests, making recommendations on what titles and topics and guests might work. And so, we have augmented the uh the podcast with some adjunctic horsepower to make sure that we're pointing everything in the right direction.

55:54 But, you know, one of the things that I was talking to a friend about earlier this week is I think, you know, interview formats will still be very very very popular, but people the people yearn for something different. And so, again, I use this as an opportunity. Um I was like really into TikTok for a while. I need to like go back to short-form vertical content.

56:19 There's some like cloud girls out there doing very cool stuff on TikTok. Um so, like is short-form um a vehicle for us? Should we be doing more in short-form? Should I be writing more? Like what is the business again? Is how I think about it and then what kind of products need to fit in the business? And I just take a very like iterative product approach to it.

56:37 >> That's cool. I I guess one last technical question about sort of the open claw stuff. Are you using like Mac minis? Are you doing it in the cloud? Like what's >> All Mac stat fat stacks of Mac minis. So, we I have four Mac minis on my desk. One is my work one. Um one is my husband's. One is for the family and kids. And then one is a Perplexity computer.

57:00 It's running Perplexity. It's not running open claw. Um and I would just like a sneak peek into the Vo Lawless household. My husband just run walks around mumbling like, "We need more compute." And I'm like desperately looking for Mac Studios. So, we live a very My you know, my like 9-year-old is like, "Who put Who took my computer? Like where's my Like where's my Raspberry Pi?"

57:24 So, we're very on brand. >> Wait, so so the So, each of those because you said you have something like eight or nine open claws. So, what's actually happening there with those? >> So, I have all my work ones on So, basically, my friend Jessie Janay gave me this concept and I think it's really great, which is like your machine is your sandbox. And so, I put all like Chat PRD related workers in their own office, and that office is my Mac mini.

57:50 And they all have their own workspaces, they all have their own desks. But at the end of the day, if like Polly wanders into Max's cubicle, it's probably fine cuz it's all the same business. But I don't necessarily want Polly wandering into like my kids' homework and vice versa. And so, I really like physically partitioned the agents based on the business they're attached to.

58:15 So, my all my business stuff is on one, all my husband's business stuff on the other, the personal stuff is on one, and then I have it like we have a floater that we throw um Perplexity computer at and then like Codex tasks at. >> Cool. That's awesome. I guess the last questions which we always wrap with are sort of the customary ones, which is um you know, it's a little bit different because you're building such a different type of business, but um we I we'd love to close with like the reason to not be a solo founder.

58:42 Um and then and then we talk about that for a minute or two. And then we we go to the case for solo founding. So, what's the reason to not be a solo founder? >> Have all the money. I don't think like ownership in in terms of like equity ownership is the right lens. Um and even the the desire to be sort of um the the dictator of your own business. Like I don't think my way or the highway 100% ownership is is the right motivating factor because there's lots of ways to to drive your opinion in businesses of all shapes and

59:16 sizes. And so, I don't think that's the right reason to be a solo founder is because you really feel like you're the cuz honestly, everybody has a boss. My boss is just my customers. Um so you're never going to escape having a boss and um there can be lots of very exciting financial outcomes with with split ownership. And so I don't think those are the reasons to be a solo founder.

59:41 >> Yeah, cuz you talk about sort of like skill sets and things like that. Do you think that Do you think that skill sets are are another reason or like I'm cur- I'm curious like to not to not be solo, yeah. >> mean, I think there are attributes of people who would probably be quite unsuccessful being a solo founder. One is if you just do not have a lot of intrinsic If you are extrinsically motivated, it is helpful to have extrinsic motivators in the form of other people invested in your business, whether investors or

01:00:06 employees or or founder. If you're not intrinsically motivated, and then if you're prone to um like shiny object syndrome, it's often nice to have a moderating force on you. And if you honestly just don't have the complete skill set to do all the jobs at hand. I think it is actually very hard to be a solo founder with an extremely deep spike in one functional area.

01:00:30 It's always, I think, better to be a little bit more rounded at the founder table, at the executive table, whatever that is, early on because I think you will avoid things that ultimately help you build a bigger business. >> I think that that makes a lot of sense. I'm happy we I'm happy we we added that onto the end there. Um I guess the case for solo founding.

01:00:52 >> Oh, it's the best. You You know, I I've had co-founders, I have built businesses with employees, I've certainly run businesses with employees, um and then I've done this all on my own. I would say I'm just like a very different shape of solo founder, right? Cuz you can be a solo founder but take investment. You can be a solo founder and have lots of employees.

01:01:12 Um you can be a solo founder and still have have a board. I am like truly lone wolf solo founder. And so I think my perspective is going to be a little bit different, which is to truly own your own company allows you to shape a life you really want. And that is just very different from allows you to build a billion-dollar business. And I want to be very clear that those are not necessarily They can be overlapped.

01:01:39 Maybe they will be. Let's We'll see. You all make some more PRDs. But um I do think the ability to not answer to anybody else's idea of what a successful life looks like and therefore what your successful business should look like is a very, very high-value thing for being a solo entrepreneur, if not a a solo founder. Because literally I can just say no to customers I don't want to work with.

01:02:09 Literally I could just ship stuff that sparks joy for me that maybe customers want, maybe they don't. I can I can slow down the growth of the business if I want. I just had a 6-month-old. Guess what? December when I was 9 months pregnant was not a shining star chat PRD month. And guess what? No one complained to me about it. Not a Not even a single open claw complained to me about it because they weren't around then.

01:02:32 And so like I I just think the ability to really have the life that you want is something that I wouldn't trade for right now. You know, as I tell people like many millions of dollars you'd have to pay me to go back into a Slack with 500 people. Like my joy is very, very high now and so I think that like true ownership of your over your life, not your business, but over your life is is something that I think people shouldn't underestimate.

01:02:58 >> This is awesome. I mean, I really appreciate you taking the time. I know you're the only human working on your business. You're >> [laughter] >> the only human working on your business of all time. So I I know this this is a lot. Um and you know, I think it's just so great because you're providing a perspective that is very unique. You know, a lot of the people we talk to are building, you know, companies where they have funding and they have teams and things like that.

01:03:18 And I think that different ways of building companies are amazing. I think that the cool thing about being a solo founder is that you truly It's not about the dictatorship, it's about choosing really what you want. I call it authorship more. And this authorship of deciding what kind of book or what kind of thing you want to create around what your goals are is really great.

01:03:37 I I think it's so wonderful to have you on because you're able to share a different perspective, one that, you know, I think is going to be truly singular. So, thank you for doing that. >> Well, well, thank you. It was really fun. >> If you enjoyed this conversation, we would love it if you could share Solo Founders with everyone you know, particularly people who are considering starting companies solo or who are already doing it.

01:03:56 You know, the entire goal of what we do is to normalize solo founding, encourage more people [music] to solo found instead of end up with co-founders of convenience. If you'd like, and we really appreciate it, you can go leave a review on Apple, you can go give us a thumbs up, you can subscribe on the YouTube channel. Anything helps. And of course, if you are starting a company or considering starting a company, you should go look at the Solo Founders program.

01:04:17 We work together with you in San Francisco alongside of a bunch of other solo founders. The idea is it's much better to be solo together than to be solo alone. I'll spend a lot of time helping you, and we also invest $100,000 in your company. So, if you're excited to learn more about that, go check out solofounders.com/program.